0.00.00 - 0.04.01 |
Background information, House on Friars Walk, Doyle Road and eventually Ballyphehane. Father did not want to return to the house he built on Doyle Rd after Marie's Mother Died, instead choosing to be housed in new corporation house in Ballyphehane even though that meant paying rent. Mother was from Middleton, Father born and raised on Friar’s walk. He went to the model School on Anglesea St. Like to hunt with dogs. Marie went to the South Presentation convent till she was eleven when she move to Guildford, England to her aunties for three month, returned to Ballyphehane but grandmother sick so Marie never returned to school. |
0.04.01 - 0.06.35 |
Ballyphehane in her childhood. All country, spent her days out in the Well Field by the snotty bridge. Pack jam sandwiches, going swimming in the stream and a well for drinking water. Her child hood house on Friars road was the last house on the road. After that it was all dirt road. It would have been across form where the Marian Pharmacy is now. Across the road was tory top lane (not to be confused with Tory top road). The other street (now Reendowny Place) they called ‘the lane’ but when her friend’s boyfriend the captain of the Innisfallen came looking for her one day he called it First Avenue which subsequently stuck. When her friend married the captain they got VIP treatment on the Innisfallen. |
0.06.35 - 0.09.27 |
The Layout of Lower Friars walk. Market Gardens, all of Ballyphehane was market gardens. First house in lower friars walk lived in By a guard by the name of Kearney, he rented from Gerry Coughlan. Next house John Barrett the builder rented from Michael Halloran. The house Marie lived in was Tim Hurley’s, he had a market garden all around the house. He had four daughters, three became Nuns. One got married. There was hill view which was three houses, one was grandmother of Hurley’s, one was Horgan’s, and the other was another Hurley which had nine of them living in it. The next family was the Scannell’s who had a market garden. Then Hosford’s a protestant family who had an orchard. Next was Cotter, the last house on left hand side was Coughlan’s. On the Right hand side of Lwr Friars walk. Jim Barrett and Joe Barrett, then you an O’Connor. The next was William Halloran Marie’s Grandmothers brother. His daughter was married to Paddy Foley and they lived in the house below, also market gardeners. Next was Halloran’s orchard where the church is now. |
0.09.28 - 0.10.18 |
Halloran’s orchard. Small gate through to a small house, Marie’s aunt lived in. Halloran’s (Marie’s great Grandparents) reared her. Marie’s grandmother had six daughters and one son. Further in was the Halloran house, they had a daughter that never married called Katie and she was in another house. Nat the back of the orchard you had Crowley’s and they had an orchard too. |
0.10.18 - 0.11.57 |
After the Halloran’s Orchard you had Riordan who was involved in the I.R.A. Marie is unsure of the exact details but remembers prisoners being released from England came looking for Riordan, Marie’s grandmother sent them to another Riordan who lived in the big house. Then sent word to the real O’Riordan to get out. |
0.11.57 - 0.13.33 |
After his house there was a lane way to Pouladuff Road. Donovan lived there, they called him ‘Murder the Loaf’ and his son ‘slice pan’. Then the next family was Daly’s on Tramore road in a cottage and that was the end of Friars Walk going down. They Called Tramore road Tramore road, but was also known as Hangdog road. Marie’s Grandmothers brother lived where Healy’s cleaners is which was called low lands, In a big house. Marie was caught kissing her Husband Gerry (her then boyfriend) in the ‘Confessional boxes’ (concrete cubicles) by the priest, Who asked if they ‘had anything better to do?’ |
0.13.34 - 0.15.14 |
Halloran’s Orchard. Marie doesn’t remember her great grandparents having it, it was her uncle paddy who ran it. Massive orchard went all the way to Pouladuff rd., with many people employed to pick apples. After Marie’s grandmother got married first she work in the orchard, her husband was a plaster. Originally grandmother was meant to marry a farmer from Ballygarvan, but she was already going out with what would turn out to be her husband and had no intention of marrying famer her parents had matched her with. Great-grandfather told her that all she would get from him in that case is a pair of grey horses to pull her carriage on the wedding day and nothing else. Never got her dowry. So she was the poor one of the family. But it came to her later, one of the Halloran’s that lived by the park died without a will, he was never married, to sell his property every member had to sign, grandmother told not to sign but said ‘what my father never gave me I don’t want’ and she signed it. |
0.15.14 - 0.17.08 |
The city was a million miles away to them, only went in to get shoes and they mostly came from England or hand-me-downs. England had better way of getting things even though it wasn’t too much different there. Marie’s grandaunt was a very holy person, the night Cork city burned they left the animals from the mart loose, which led to a bull going own Friars walk with its chains hanging and rattle, Marie’s Grandaunt thought it was the devil coming out of hell. |
0.17.09 - 0.22.40 |
There was loads of children on Friars walk, they all played down Friary gardens. The Davis’ had nine girls and for boys, the Duggan’s had ten. All big massive families all Marie’s age, all played together. Games they played: Gobs a game with stones, flick stones/pebbles in the air and catch them on back of hand, the gobs had names ska one and ska two, Marbles or glassy alleys, Picky, and skipping. Recites some skipping rhymes. Loads of rhymes like that. I the summer they would be in their bare feet. Marie thinks they had better childhood than today, better memories than looking at a phones and tablets. Marie thinks Those devices aren’t good for kids, but they need to use them for school. They would play with twine and make pattern from twisting, like the gate and baby’s cradle. Her uncle in Midleton was a tailor, he saved all the reels for her, she would put four tack in them and put thread around and keep flicking them over the tacks and you would have a big rope. Collecting scraps was also big. There would be murder over them, robbing them and everything. |
0.22.41 - 0.23.00 |
Marie had two older brothers, Teddy died of cancer at forty three, and the other is still alive and is eighty, he thought out in C.I.T |
0.23.01 - 0.00.00 |
Food growing up. They saw meat on Sunday, maybe a shoulder of bacon. Plenty of potatoes, vegetables and rice. They could make rice pudding some days. They would have porridge in the morning. You would have to be sick top get an egg. They would eye up the top of the fathers boiled egg and fight over it. Mother would get the bones out of the butcher on Saturday, boil them with vegetables and make a big pot of soup, which would last a few days. Back bones, her husband was never given back bones or bodice because they were country people, so when Marie married her father told her to get back bone with tail, Gerry came in from work he turned his nose up at it. He came round. Bought pigs head convinced husband to eat it, not too convinced, her father kept saying the ear is crispy. Tongue was delicious. Tripe and Drisseen, tripe cooked in milk and onions for a long time, drissenn on the other hand cooked very fast. It’s very good for your stomach. Children wouldn’t touch it. |
0.25.45 - 0.27.01 |
Marie’s Husband, was from Ballincollaig out the country side in a cottage. He moved to Blackrock and they met in the boat club at a new year’s eve dance. Liam went to school with Marie’s husband Gerry in St. Joseph’s. Gerry’s mother wouldn’t send him to Blackrock because she would see the pupils smoking over the wall by the house and see said ‘you’re not going down there, you’ll only learn to smoke down there’ so he had to go to the mardyke all the way from Blackrock. They had to be left off early for lunch so they could get home on the 12.15 bus and back in to school after lunch at 1.30(7km each way). . |
0.27.01 - 0.36.25 |
Friars Walk cont. Tory top lane ran at the side of the where the Marian chemist is now. The ex-servicemen’s cottages were in friary gardens. At the end where the bungalows are is where the lane turned off. Johnny Crowley had a market garden there and fed pigs. Bella Dunne her mother Kitty Paul and their donkey was so hungry that it ate the door of the shed. Where Connolly road side of the park was called the field, they played there. Barbed wire divvied it from the graveyard, little bit down was McCloughan’s cottage, then Neville’s slaughter house next to another Halloran. By the front of the graveyard there was a big red brick building with toilets and a water font. All countryside, no house after that. Barrett’s on friars walk off Derrynane Rd? Big house in playing field (tory top park) Catharine Mahoney called Catherine ‘snowballs’. And Noel ‘the goat’ and his wife’s mother nanny Callaghan they used to sit her out in a chair Marie thought she was ‘dotie’ thinking about it now she had dementia, they used light paper and put it in the chute to torment them (they called it thunder up the alley), he would come out in his long johns, and they used to call him the ‘devil out of hell’. There was a pump outside their house. House in the park was used as community centre. Then was ‘First Avenue’(now Reendowny Place) at the end of the houses you crossed a field to pouladuff, Noel Halloran lived in the first house, he was killed down in Dunlop’s, a man Meaney, Callaghan’s, Leary, Fitzgerald’s Harris’. They used to call this area the cross, friars walk with ‘first avenue’ and tory top lane being the other roads. Mrs Harris had teeth that were always coming out, Marie’s brother told Marie that they were the father’s teeth. Paddy the milk man , the grandmother used to make Marie get a sup for the cat off him. CMP dairy not on tramore road at time it was a big house. And where Vita Cortex factory is was Ballyphehane House, which was used a school while Coláiste Chríost Rí on Capwell was being built. The woman who lived by there used to wash the football teams jerseys she was call Mag ‘the Whalloper’ she moved to murphy’s lane , they called her husband ‘Hollywood’ because of his immaculate dressing. All bog down there by Mercier park. Turners cross pitch was all bog. The train line ran passed it. Also the Tramore river from the ESB pitch and putt was all open but no a lot is piped over. |
0.36.25 - 0.39.55 |
The Building of Ballyphehane. Marie’s brother worked on it. Big change, her house was taken to they could build houses. Brother was sent to Skerry’s college (civil service training) but after 2 months it was discovered that her brother was just hanging out in Fitzgerald’s park and not attending college. So he was marched to Leaders for a bib and brace sent to Ballyphehane and learnt his trade on the house facing the graveyard. Marie was thirteen when the development started, she loved it, it modernised her life and luxuries such as Lennox’s Chipper and everything else, very positive. On the cross they would have a huge Bonfire every year and put new potatoes in the corner of fire and all eat spuds. No traffic, only horse and carts, they used to ‘lang on’ (hang on) the back of the ‘floats’ (flatbed carts) that brought the men back from the docks. She wouldn’t say she made friends with the new people moving in, but she was at the age where she was chasing fellas so she welcomed the new arrivals. |
0.39.55 - 0.40.59 |
Haunted house or scary stories. . Scanlon’s house where one of them hung himself, another then was put in to the mental home on the Lee road. They had that kind of tendency in the family. Marie used to go to graveyard where Fr Matthew’s grave was a you could see a coffin in a sarcophagus that made them run away. |
0.41.00 - 0.42.50 |
Say’s she had a fabulous upbringing in her youth, freedom, not like now. On her school holidays they used leave the house go to the well field with their togs, no towel and stay out till five in the evening, no worries. Couldn’t do that today. That house Marie lives in now on Doyle rd was built entirely by her father 80 years ago. All the tradesmen help each out. Marie’s daughter lives on Derrynane rd and was brought in to the neighbour’s house to be shown signatures of the tradesmen that worked on the house and Marie’s fathers was there. |
0.42.51 – 0.44.21 |
Revised the Black and Tans story, all names of people living in house was written behind door and they’d check if it matched. INTERVIEW ENDS |
Describes attending school in cold substandard buildings. Preferred self-directed learning to rote memorizing. Her love of nature and science was evident early and evolved into her passion to follow medicine as a vocation and career, despite the opposition of her parents and GP who feared it would be a hard life especially for a woman.
Reflects on the deficiencies of medical training in University College Cork, especially the deliberate use of fear and humiliation in teaching which has left a negative mark on her and other colleagues. Suggests that the need to imprint so much information through humiliation is no longer necessary due to improvements in technology.
Outlines her career path through various roles, experiences and responsibilities including working in Accident and Emergency and time in New Zealand.
Discusses her impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre both as a physical building with leaks and in disrepair and as a unique workplace with a community of multiple disciplines which function well together.
Speaks about her current work as an Area Medical Officer, the kind of patients she sees and typical issues that arise including developmental checks on babies and following up with parents.
Reflects on attitudes towards medicine and the HSE especially among parents, and how as a doctor she has to deal with this in order to achieve best outcomes for child patients.
Outlines the problems with Grattan Street staff car parking and the issues it cause.
Talks about the outlines of the history she has gleaned about Grattan Street Medical Centre Building as a Quaker Meeting House and as a public dispensary.
Speaks of the marriage registry office which is part of the Grattan Street building, where weddings happen during her work day creating a strange but joyous contrast.
Discusses the amount of paperwork and documentation required for all the work in Grattan Street that remains from past decades which fascinates her.
Reflects on her hopes and the possible futures for the Grattan Street Medical Centre building, and the fate of services that will move to St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. Compares the two locations and emphasizes the importance of a good workplace culture within a building. Talks about possible patient attitudes to the new building. Hopes it will have a communal staff canteen.
Outlines the importance of administration staff in contributing to positive experiences for patients and facilitating the efficient work clinical staff.
Reflects on the difficulties of a medical career including 90 hour weeks, missing out on parties and travelling, and having to tell mothers that their babies have died.
]]>Edith grew up in Youghal where she recalls playing childhood games including Red Rover, chainey, a makeshift tennis and sandcastles on the beach.
Describes attending school in cold substandard buildings. Preferred self-directed learning to rote memorizing. Her love of nature and science was evident early and evolved into her passion to follow medicine as a vocation and career, despite the opposition of her parents and GP who feared it would be a hard life especially for a woman.
Reflects on the deficiencies of medical training in University College Cork, especially the deliberate use of fear and humiliation in teaching which has left a negative mark on her and other colleagues. Suggests that the need to imprint so much information through humiliation is no longer necessary due to improvements in technology.
Outlines her career path through various roles, experiences and responsibilities including working in Accident and Emergency and time in New Zealand.
Discusses her impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre both as a physical building with leaks and in disrepair and as a unique workplace with a community of multiple disciplines which function well together.
Speaks about her current work as an Area Medical Officer, the kind of patients she sees and typical issues that arise including developmental checks on babies and following up with parents.
Reflects on attitudes towards medicine and the HSE especially among parents, and how as a doctor she has to deal with this in order to achieve best outcomes for child patients.
Outlines the problems with Grattan Street staff car parking and the issues it cause.
Talks about the outlines of the history she has gleaned about Grattan Street Medical Centre Building as a Quaker Meeting House and as a public dispensary.
Speaks of the marriage registry office which is part of the Grattan Street building, where weddings happen during her work day creating a strange but joyous contrast.
Discusses the amount of paperwork and documentation required for all the work in Grattan Street that remains from past decades which fascinates her.
Reflects on her hopes and the possible futures for the Grattan Street Medical Centre building, and the fate of services that will move to St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. Compares the two locations and emphasizes the importance of a good workplace culture within a building. Talks about possible patient attitudes to the new building. Hopes it will have a communal staff canteen.
Outlines the importance of administration staff in contributing to positive experiences for patients and facilitating the efficient work clinical staff.
Reflects on the difficulties of a medical career including 90 hour weeks, missing out on parties and travelling, and having to tell mothers that their babies have died.
0.00.00 - 0.00.23 |
Intro |
0.00.23- 0.02.04 |
Games Played as Child in Youghal Grew up in Youghal. Children’s games: chasing games, Red Rover, What Time is it Mr Wolf?, Chainy. Elastics game: Long piece of elastic tied into a loop with a person at each end with complex rules about how to jump in and out and over and back. Played tennis: in the tennis club and also “over the gate”. It was the era of John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova and Bjorn Borg. Played a form of football. Made mud pies. |
0.02.04- 0.02.26 |
Describes game Chainy or Chainey in more detail Still played in her child’s school. One person catches another and they must keep holding hands and keep catching people until they are all holding hands in a long chain. |
0.02.26- 0.03.06 |
Describes Red Rover or Bulldog She didn’t like Red Rover. Stand in chain and chant “Red Rover, Red Rover, we call over X” Begins with 2 children holding hands and the person who is called over must try to run through their hands and break the link, which Edith says always hurt and as she was “quite small” she was usually the weak link. If someone didn’t break the link they had to join that chain. |
0.03.06- 0.03.47 |
Games on The beach Not much time in the water/sea because it was too cold. Made sandcastles, sand tunnels, forts, dams to keep the sea out or bring the sea in. These plans never worked and Edith says “you learned about futility as a smallie”. |
0.03.47- 0.04.38 |
Playing Without Adult Supervision Spent a lot of time quite bored in fields or on bikes. “We’d just head off on the bikes for the day: I don’t really know where we went or why we went.” Only television was RTE 1 and RTE 2- “Poverty 1 and Poverty 2” there was nothing to watch. Call to friend and come back when felt like it. No phones. Improvised ways out of problems. Reasonable amount of time without adult supervision. But there were always watchful adult eyes: “if you were doing something you shouldn’t be doing your parents would usually hear about it.” |
0.04.38- 0.05.00 |
Where not allowed to play Places not allowed to be on bikes when little: out the front on the main road where cars were quite fast. Not supposed to go on the back fields where there was a bull. (Suggestion in her response is that they may have not always obeyed!) |
0.05.00 - 0.05.16 |
Home Mum, dad and sister 3 years older. Mum was primary school principal. Dad worked Monday-Friday 9-5. |
0.05.16- 0.06.51 |
Primary School Remembers being cold and very bored. Went to school in “Park” on a crossroads on the top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Where her mum was teacher. 2 teacher outside toilets and no central heating when she started school. There was a stove to heat the classroom very like the school in Muckross Farms. Two “boot rooms” or cloakrooms. Inside toilets eventually installed. Very few students. |
0.06.51- 0.09.50 |
Secondary School Went to Loreto in Youghal it was also very cold. Some years were in prefabs. The school was near the lighthouse. When you were bored you could look out to the sea from an old redbrick house which was left to the nuns. It was very exposed to the weather- wind, rain and salt spray from the sea-wall. Enjoyed maths and science. Lots of repetition in the schoolwork. Would prefer self-directed learning not just learning by rote. For people with other kinds of intelligence it wasted their potential and opportunity. Heuristic learning- learning through play and experience. She learned how to sew a button, balance a cheque book and pay a bill. Skills for living in the world: how to cook how to clean how to look after your physical health, mental health should be taught. |
0.09.50- 0.11.19 |
Love of Nature and Science leading to Medicine. Was always interested in nature and biological sciences: “mad about nature”. When 13 or 14 a friend brought a roadkill mink to science class to dissect it. The teacher was a bit squeamish, but Edith said she would do it “no bother”. Remembers “pure awe” at how remarkably perfect the insides were, “how it all fitted, and it all worked”. Had dissected earthworms before. Drifted then to wanting to do medicine. Set her heard on it. |
0.11.19- 0.14.09 |
Medicine as a Vocation, the Determination Required Mom and dad really didn’t want her to do medicine at all. They called in the local GP to tell her not to do it- which had the opposite effect. She applied for medicine at 16 when she sat her leaving cert for the first time and had to repeat it because she didn’t get enough points. In some ways in hindsight her parents were probably right. It is a hard life and requires working very hard for a very long time. Edith was a premature baby and was always physically small and thin and her parents were concerned. Her colleague with an Italian grandmother described the need to do medicine as being like a holy fire [Note: “sacro fuoco” maybe?] similar to a vocation but perhaps not spiritual. If you have this fire nothing else will do. She also applied for computer science. If she hadn’t done medicine in college, she thinks she would have gone back to do it later in life. Local GP told her it’s a very hard life for a woman- which is not the thing to say to a 15-year-old. Thinks the nuns that taught her was feminist in their way as they were ambitious for their students. The GP said that you don’t want to do nightshifts when pregnant or be on call when you have small babies. The cards are very much stacked against you to make it in medicine as a consultant as a woman. Edith says he was right but that you don’t want to hear that at 15. |
0.14.09- 0.15.17 |
Nuns’ Ambition for the girls Only one in school to do medicine. Many of the students did honours maths. There was competition between the boys’ school and the girls’ school. They’ve now combined. Some schools didn’t offer honours maths or honours science subjects to leaving cert for girls. |
0.15.17- 0.18.40 |
Medical Training in UCC University College Cork Didn’t love medicine in UCC. Didn’t find the training easy- a culture of throwing people in to it. Students told that most of them would become GPs and that medical students learn themselves they don’t need to be taught. Lectures often had little relevance to what was in the book. Clinical training involved bullying, teaching by fear, humiliation. Consultant was seen as god. Lots of waiting around for people who didn’t turn up. Mental fallout for some of the people in her class. And the system may not have made them better doctors. Saw how students were taught differently overseas. Students were getting sick in the morning with nerves before clinics. Had friends who weren’t doing medicine. Met her now husband at 19. Always had something outside of medicine to stay grounded. Always liked the clinical work and the patients. |
0.18.40 - 0.23.40 |
Clinical Training Book learning- through lectures. Clinical placements for students with a particular service for a time follow their team and learn how to take a patient history and examine a patient. Initially must ask about everything when taking patient histories until you know what to look for. Lived in nurses’ home in Limerick for six weeks. Consultant would take you to see an interesting patient to ask you questions. Some were fine but some were set up so that you would definitely fail so that you know that you know nothing and be humiliated. It was done to everybody no one was singled out. Describes how the consultant asked students questions. Thinks that the experience has left a mark on her and otherwise confident colleagues as they sometimes have difficulty answering questions in group settings, or when in a particular tone. Describes it as like being triggered. Edith didn’t go to one consultant’s clinics because she found she wasn’t learning from him. No one would notice if she wasn’t there. Jokes that she hopes UCC doesn’t as they’ll take away her degree! |
0.23.40- 0.25.25 |
Why this teaching system was used in UCC Consultants wanted to imprint the exceptions and rare cases on their minds so they wouldn’t forget. It was basically the Socratic method. They were once told that they weren’t good enough to be medical students. Then not good enough to be the vets in Ballsbridge and lastly that they weren’t good enough to be the medical correspondent in the Irish Times! Sounds funny now but at the time they were devastated. But Edith still remembers the name of the particular type of amputation due to this scene. This system of teaching & learning was designed when people need to remember a lot of information. Now things have changed as “all the information is there” now you need to learn how to use it. An interesting patient is one which had something which was rare. Edith describes it as something with four legs, a tail and neighs but is a zebra not a horse. |
0.26.05- 0.30.07 |
Career Path for medical students SHO- senior house officer. After qualifying you become an intern. After a first year as an intern you can become an SHO. Then become a Registrar, then a Senior Registrar, Specialist Registrar and eventually a Consultant. SHO could be 2-4 years long. SHOs are the general grunts they do all the hard work. Edith did 6 months surgery in Mercy Hospital, 6 months of medicine in the South Infirmary Hospital and really enjoyed them. Every thirds week in the Mercy they worked 110 hours. In hindsight they had “ridiculous levels of responsibility”. Then did the 2 year specialist paediatric training scheme in Dublin. Then did paediatrics in New Zealand, then accident and emergency. Did GP training in New Zealand. Returned to Ireland when her eldest daughter was 1. Worked as GP in Cork. After her twins were born Edith went back to work when they were 8 months old. She worked for Swiftcare for 5 years. Husband stayed at home to mind children and was going to go back to work. She was clinical lead with Swiftcare which included corporate, management and clinical. Looking to reduce her hours and her friend asked if she would be interested in a job in Grattan Street and she started March 2013. |
0.30.07- 0.33.44 |
Enjoyed Accident and Emergency work in New Zealand Edith says A&E in New Zealand is fabulous. It was real doctoring. The immediacy of it. See lots of different things. Got her clinical confidence- could deal with anything. Security removed anyone who was abusive. There was always enough resources, staff, beds. People weren’t burnt out in the way they are in Ireland. Requires being on call on nights. Did A&E in the Hutt outside wealthy Wellington CBD Central Business District and Porirua. Deprived areas around the Hutt so there were cases of self-harm, domestic abuse and patients from lower-socioeconomic areas. Gravitated towards those areas, similar in her time in Temple Street. In Cork Edith works mainly in the Northside. The social supports either weren’t there or didn’t work in her experience in Ireland. Children unable to access basic dental care was unheard of in New Zealand where they have better primacy care. |
0.33.44- 0.36.36 |
Early Memory & description of Grattan Street Medical Centre A woman working downstairs said it was like coming to Colditz [German WW2 Prisoner of War Camp]. Arrived with a friend. Everyone was so nice. An old Quaker Meeting House. In busy urban areas between a school, busy road, houses, church complex. Hodgepodge! Kind of Victorian road frontage. Older building at the back made of cut stone. Higgledy-piggledy. Different types of signage. There’s a bit of a railing and bit of a ramp. Building kept together with duct tape and bits of binder twine. It’s a bit sad looking. But it has been here a long time and will be here in the future. A building that’s seen use and is embedded in the community. In keeping with Middle Parish. |
0.36.36- 0.39.02 |
Services in Grattan Street Medical Centre Health centre which provides community-based services for people based in Middle Parish, inner-city area, eye clinic provides community eye services for all of the North Lee HSE area- from Blarney to Carrigtwohill. Community podiatry clinic. Community medical doctors: child development clinics and vaccination services for North Lee. Public Health Nurse (PHN) services based in Grattan Street. Home Care Services Unit. Community dental services has moved out. Girls at front desk do European Health Visit Card and stamp forms- eye clinic etc. Community Welfare Officer used to be there as well but they have moved. Vaccination services. Similar but disparate services. Serve different populations within the community. Community based services are geographically decided rather than by your condition. |
0.39.02- 0.40.40 |
Engagement with a Community Based Service Hopes that services run in the community for the community get a better engagement rather than traveling to a tertiary centre. More likely to engage with a PHN who you may have been to before than an anonymous person in an anonymous clinic that changes each time you go. Community knowledge of Grattan Street in a way that there isn’t for CUH. Grattan Street doesn’t deal with life and death so expectations are different to a hospital. Physically less distance for people to travel in the community. |
0.40.40- 0.43.44 |
Working in Grattan Street Communal Building Uses Grattan Street for office-based work. Some clinics in Grattan Street but the demographics have changed and there are fewer babies and young children in the area. Primarily paper-pushing and renewing the connections that you have with the people who work in Grattan Street. Clinics in South Doc so it’s possible for Edith not to meet any other healthcare professionals only patients so Grattan Street is a social hub and important part of the job where information is transmitted in a more informal way not through writing. Importance of feedback. And Grattan Street facilitates that. Communal building. Can see people walking past and talk to them if you leave your office door open. Facilitates those networks. You will know who is in the building and check in with Celine in the office to see who else is there and what is happening. AMO- Area Medical Officer now Community Medical Doctors. |
0.43.44- 0.51.20 |
Clinics and Patients in Grattan Street Afternoon clinic downstairs in room 4 in Grattan Street. 6-10 patients in an afternoon clinic from 2:30-4pm. Anything referred in by the PHN or the assessment of needs- the disability services, and early intervention- concern with an ongoing developmental delay in child in the community. Checks for vision, head checks, hip checks. Partly routine partly not routine. Patients tend to be very early or very late. People will turn up 30 minutes early or 15-20 minutes late. Other places people turn up on time or a few minutes late. But with small babies delays happen for parents. Staff has high tolerance for that. Sometimes a mum will come with other children as well, or with a granny or granny will come with the children or there will be a friend or helper there too. Majority of patients come from PHNs. Form from PHN saying who their GP is and why they’re being referred. Always checks their names especially as more and more patients don’t have a typical Irish name. Some of them change mobile numbers often so checking those details is important. Change of address is also a problem. Some come from Edel House a women’s homeless service. Takes a background history or birth history- where they were born, birth weight, past medical history. Discuss risk factors, examine patients and how to proceed and be very clear with follow up instructions with the parents. We only remember 30% of what we are told. Usually don’t see patients again- not a follow up, ongoing service, don’t provide therapeutic intervention. “Good at normal”- this is within the range of what we expect. Much of medicine is about the abnormal. Most usual medical issues she deals with: Vision checks for squint, hip checks- concern about deformation, head checks. Developmental assessment- concern about autism or global developmental delay or intellectual disability. Preschools are good at spotting developmental concerns and referring them. |
0.51.20- 0.54.53 |
Attitudes of Parents towards Health & Medicine and HSE Parents want the best for children and are happy to do the best what it takes. Rare case where parent is in denial about their child’s situation- Edith doesn’t hassle them so as not to sour therapeutic relations down the line. Most people engage unlike adult medicine. Some parents may have complicated or chaotic lives and social workers may need to get involved. Advocate for the child’s best interests and is represented in the family. Even parents with most complicated lives can address the child’s needs. HSE is different. Expectation of a bad service especially where Grattan Street looks a bit rough and ready, but surprised that they get a good service and Edith is pleasant and doesn’t rush them out. Difficult conversations about telling parents of long waiting lists. Edith cannot speed up assessments. |
0.54.53- 0.58.43 |
Most Unusual Cases come across Doesn’t like unusual. Should not be seeing anything acute or sinister. A child staring into space could have autism sometimes it could be an absence seizure which needs a difficult treatment. Genetic abnormality which causes a developmental delay. Acute cases usually picked up by the paediatricians. Be careful about not scaring parents. Sometimes parents are reluctant to go to hospital. Acute cases are the ones that you think about when you go home and are not at work. Acute is something which cannot wait. Less concerned about something which is stable and isn’t going to change eg if someone is fragile X a chromosomal condition which causes developmental delay, commonest cause of intellectual disability- if a patient has this it is not going to go away. But if there’s a child you think has a brain tumour which has given them an acute squint which has come on over 24 hours out of nowhere then you don’t want to wait. |
0.58.43- 1.01.44 |
Dealing with Parents Reluctant to go to Hospital Most parents want what’s best for child. Sometimes parents can sometimes be preparing to fight to get what they think their child needs, and be adversarial. Can spend much of consultation time to get the parent onside. Have to be careful to not reinforce the idea that the parent thinks they need to push harder to get what they want. Explains that she wouldn’t do for someone else’s child what she wouldn’t do for any of her own. That can be a powerful message for a parent. If that doesn’t convince them then she has to start thinking about social workers: is there child abuse, is the parent drunk or stoned. |
1.01.44- 1.02.30 |
Why People may be reluctant to go to Hospital Down to resources: can’t afford taxi, no one to mind children, don’t want to go to CUH Cork University Hospital. Often single mums, mums without social supports, or trying to work and mind children. Physical upheaval is difficult. Logistically and economically difficult for parents. Example from Gurranabraher. |
1.02.30- 1.04.58 |
What it is like to work in Grattan Street Unique. Communal building, sense of community. Even people that you don’t deal with clinically you get to know which is important. Buildings are about the people in them not just the services they provide. Physicality of the building- open gallery- you can see & hear who is there. Would prefer it if was a warner building. Survivor bonding over the deficiencies of the building. Problems with parking. People say they work in Grattan Street not in podiatry. |
1.04.58- 1.06.24 |
Parking Small area for parking, not big enough for all the people who work there. Have to move your car to let people out. Didn’t park in the car park when working a half-day because wouldn’t be able to get out. School and houses also use the parking area and they can get cross if they are blocked. |
1.06.24- 1.09.12 |
Past of the Building Quaker meeting house. Building is set up like a church- entrance with arch and sweeping staircases, ceiling roses, curved picture rails. Awareness of the thickness of the walls and windows, not the typical shape for an office building or healthcare centre. Stone plaques outside in the parking area which commemorate the building. Was a dispensary from the 1940s one of the school nurses on the list of interviewees has a friend whose father was the dispenser or pharmacist there. Some of the came to Grattan Street as children for speech and language therapy. No anecdotes about when the lights went out or when it flooded. Cultural understanding of dispensary is that it was a publicly funded pharmacy but that they were fairly grim places for the ordinary not the great and the good. Lots of rooms and big building. |
1.09.12- 1.11.37 |
Weddings in the Registry in Grattan Street Other part of the building is the registry office at the front where people get married. Weddings out the front when coming to work. Children crying and elderly people. Swathe of human life. Unusual to see weddings in the urban work environment which makes everyone smile. And she will miss that when they move. Thinks other employees will have stories and anecdotes. |
1.11.37- 1.15.00 |
Paper & Documents in Grattan Street No one would believe how much paper is in the building. No one removes paper because no one knows who it belongs to. Paper based system for records. Accretions of paper. Shared office space where very little is thrown away. Extraordinary volume of paper created and used. Referrals done on duplicate books with carbon copy. Referral books for services which no longer exist- going back as far as the 1970. Old computers unused. Random boxes of leaflets. |
1.15.00- 1.18.10 |
Words to Describe Grattan Street and its future Community. Resilience. Service. If it was a dog it would be a Labrador, and old smelly one with bad teeth that farts a lot! A pet that everyone loves. Would hate to see the building closed and empty. Sense of spirit in the building. Understands that Quakers signed over the building with the view that it would be used for health services to the community. There’s no disabled access or toilets at present. Buckets in kitchen when it rains. Won’t do well if it is left empty and cold. Community based health resource rather than offices and admin. |
1.18.10- 1.22.13 |
Future of Services moving from Grattan Street Services moving to St Mary’s health campus. Podiatry moving to St Mary’s. PHN have moved already. Vaccination will move to St Mary’s. Eye clinic will move to St Finbarr’s. Dental has gone to Finbarr’s. Unsure about European Health Cards. Home Care may stay here. Marriages will stay. They have had little information about the services. Understands the complexity of project managing the move. Eye clinic will be physically remote from St. Mary’s. Lose sense of networks even though you can still pick up the phone. Lose contacts and networks and personally knowing people in other services. Personal knowledge of how other people work. It gives you more information about how to triage or perceive a referral when you know the people. Anything that interferes with getting information relevant to the patient and decision-making will make her job slightly harder. |
1.22.13- 1.25.19 |
Sense of Patients’ Perspectives Some clinic space may have to be kept in Grattan Street because of the most vulnerable patients in the area eg. from Edel House and newly arrived immigrants, and people who have moved out of direct provision. Families where English might not be first language and from backgrounds where there might be poor healthcare. Travel may be difficult for these patients, especially going “up the hill” to St Mary’s. Will advocate strongly to keep a clinic in Grattan Street- it’s easier to move 1 doctor to see 30 patients than vice versa, and do not need any specialised equipment. Grattan Street is a disaster for people with cars- St Mary’s is much better it has parking, space and coffee shops. Ensure that better services elsewhere don’t leave more vulnerable patients behind. |
1.25.19- 1.27.47 |
Comparison between Grattan Street and St. Mary’s St Mary’s will have: heating, lifts disabled toilets, large waiting areas, easy access. [Edith’s phone vibrates during this section] In Grattan Street if you are on crutches you can’t come to work. St Mary’s will fix these problems. Change is hard. [Edith’s phone vibrates during this section] With a new start if gives the staff a chance to effect the culture of the new building. Everyone in the building making small inputs. Christmas lunch potluck and baby showers in Grattan Street for which there is no policy or permission required people organised it themselves- autonomy and power. |
1.27.47- 1.31.31 |
Culture of the New Building & Importance of Admin People need to feel they have some autonomy of their workplace eg. the signs in Grattan Street which people put up without needing permission. Every clerical and admin staff can hear the patients who come into Grattan Street so they understand that they are not a piece of paper or a number. Further away people are from the person they provide the worse the service provision. Service lives and dies on its administrative staff. When admin staff goes on holidays the clinical staff are bereft! Importance of admin staff even though their role can be minimised. But in Grattan Street there is a good balance. St Mary’s may be isolated in separate rooms. |
1.31.31- 1.33.02 |
What Makes Good Admin Support? Patience. Being able to spin so many plates. First point of contact for people who use the service. People who understand that it’s really important. Although HSE gets a bad reputation every admin staff has been helpful and gone above and beyond. Celine in Grattan Street is very patient. |
1.33.02- 1.35.14 |
Patient Expectations of St Mary’s Big scary, bewildering building. Hope that people will be made to feel welcome. Scale of foyer area is colossal and may be overwhelming. Community should have some autonomy over the building in the same way the staff should. Comfortable seats and accessible baby changing facilities may be enough to make people feel welcome. |
1.35.14-1.38.08 |
Centralised Canteen Would like to see centralised canteen for the staff with access to healthy food. Small things become important. Easy to walk around and access healthy food. Sense that the community can use the space- not much green space on the northside. Chance to look at a different model of healthcare. Moaning is easy and can create a toxic culture if things never change. Small kitchen room on St Mary’s health campus. St Finbarr’s has a centralised canteen but CUH doesn’t. Give people healthy options on site. |
1.38.08-1.40.43 |
Community connection with Grattan Street more generally Edith has little interaction with Middle Parish community. Sees people coming and going from Middle Parish Community Centre and from the SHARE Centre, may help them across the road. Very little interaction which she finds quite sad. Would know some of the support workers in Edel House through working with them and phone calls. Reality of life is everyone is very busy. No funding for other community outreach projects. May run ante-natal classes in Grattan Street which would be good. The more engaged the community can be with the building the more likely they will be to turn up to their GP appointment or diabetic nurse appointment. |
1.40.43-1.43.40 |
Reflection choosing Medicine Would not want any of her children to do medicine. Comes at a big cost. Have to work 90 hour weeks and tell mother that their babies had died while her friends were traveling and going to parties. Have to go through hard parts of job to get to a role that you like. Came first in paediatrics in UCC please don’t tell Prof Carney/Kearney that she only went to about 2 paeds lectures! But spent a lot of time in the wards. Children are direct and Edith likes that. Interview Ends |
His mother was not allowed to keep her job in the public service once she married, she took up oil painting and cared for her mother.
Describes his school days and recollects specific teachers. Outlines his engineering education and his emigration to England for work. Lived on Eton High Street and attended Tottenham Hotspur football matches. Influenced by stories of older relatives who regretted remaining in England he decided to return to Ireland.
Discusses how he began hillwalking as a hobby through photography. Explains what’s involved in leading a hill walk and how he wrote a number of hillwalking guidebooks. Mentions various walking routes in Ireland. Admires France’s rights for walkers, which are more favourable than the situation in Ireland.
Recalls starting work in Grattan Street medical centre and the various disciplines that operated there over the years. Discusses his duties as porter. Talks about the happy history of the medical centre building including its Quaker origins.
Remembers social events with fellow Grattan Street staff including Christmas parties. Mentions memorable events and incidents in Grattan Street including the floods of 2013.
]]>Sean grew up by the Lough in Cork city and spent holidays in Ardmore. Describes his family home and memories of his grandparents. Talks about playing football and the game Red Rover as a child.
His mother was not allowed to keep her job in the public service once she married, she took up oil painting and cared for her mother.
Describes his school days and recollects specific teachers. Outlines his engineering education and his emigration to England for work. Lived on Eton High Street and attended Tottenham Hotspur football matches. Influenced by stories of older relatives who regretted remaining in England he decided to return to Ireland.
Discusses how he began hillwalking as a hobby through photography. Explains what’s involved in leading a hill walk and how he wrote a number of hillwalking guidebooks. Mentions various walking routes in Ireland. Admires France’s rights for walkers, which are more favourable than the situation in Ireland.
Recalls starting work in Grattan Street medical centre and the various disciplines that operated there over the years. Discusses his duties as porter. Talks about the happy history of the medical centre building including its Quaker origins.
Remembers social events with fellow Grattan Street staff including Christmas parties. Mentions memorable events and incidents in Grattan Street including the floods of 2013.
0.00.00 - 0.03.24 |
Family and Early Memories Born in the Bons (Bon Secours Hospital). Lived all life in Cork except 4 years. Holidays in early teens to Ardmore fishing for mackerel. Brothers Paddy & Brian. Grew up on Hartlands Road by the Lough. Played football in the field by Lough or fished. Primary school St Joseph’s on Mardyke- socially mixed school with people from Northside, Southside and the country farmers’ children. Pres (PBC Presentation Brothers College) was a paid school beside them with uniforms. Got a lift to school with dad in the morning. Hour and a half for lunch so walked home for lunch. Mother stayed at home wasn’t allowed to work in public service once married. Secondary School CSN Coláiste Spioraid Naoimh Bishopstown for 3 years. Then the Regional College for junior engineering certificate course. Went on to an electrical engineering course and qualified in the early 1980s not many jobs available. Went to England using qualifications a little. Got job as porter in Grattan Street with Southern Health Board now HSE. |
0.03.24 - 0.06.08 |
Family House and Grandparents Small house 2 rooms in front, 2 behind, middle bathroom and flat-roofed kitchen at the back. Shared bedroom with 2 brothers. When 13 years old his grandmother came to live with them. In his pre-teen years his grandmother knitted a lot of their jumpers “long in the backs to keep your ass warm”. Grandmother was independent woman, went to Liverpool when 16, worked as telephonist. She married teacher in Cork & lived on Redemption Road. Stocky woman. Big motherly figure. People didn’t take exercise back then. Pleasant personality. Family visited her house on Sundays and she had “curranty bread”, Lucozade or orangeade. Parents would bring grandmother to mass. Remembers grandfather as very stern and always spoke Irish. |
0.06.08 - 0.08.30 |
Games Football across the Lough. Describes Red Rover game. In winter played football on the road which was a steep hill. Only one car on the road picked two neighbours’ gates to play football. Broke a few windows. Good natured nothing untoward. About 12 children on the road at the time. Still living on the road he grew up on now only about 4 children. There could have been 20 children at one time. The football wasn’t taken that seriously it was only killing time. |
0.08.30 - 0.09.30 |
Women banned from Work in Public Service after Marriage Mother took up painting with local oil painters in Cork for about 15 years. And then looked after her mother. There was no nursing homes. |
0.09.30 - 0.11.23 |
School and Teachers Br Albius teacher keen on science. Taught them Latin in primary school. Taught about condensation on the glass. Teacher used a sheet in the schoolyard to show how a sail on a ship works. Br John was favourite teacher because he played guitar. Sean thinks that life puts you in a certain career and if you’re happy you stay with it. You can “what-if” your life away but there is no point. |
0.11.23 - 0.13.18 |
Time in England Worked in factory doing electronic assembly. Lived in flat on Eton High Street with a few lads. Went to Tottenham Hotspur matches at night with stadium lit up- magical experience. Enjoyed England but after 2 years decided he didn’t want to grow old in England and if you stay too long you won’t be able to get away from it. Saw a generation of aunts and uncles who never came back to Ireland and regretted it. Likes the outdoors and hillwalking. Hardest thing about England- you can’t get away from people. Population of 55 million. |
0.13.18 - 0.15.20 |
Hillwalking Hobby through Photography Got into hillwalking through photography and landscape photography. But hillwalking took over. Cork Backpackers hillwalking club for about 20 years. Dungarvan Comeraghs, Galtees, Carrantuohill, Beara peninsula. Can only do that in rural places of England. Club meets on grand parade and divides into groups for different walks. Get coffee before the walk and a meal after the walk. |
0.15.20 - 0.17.46 |
What it takes to lead a walk They wouldn’t let you lead the walks. He went on the committee in order to put himself forward for leading walks. Kevin O’Flynn and from Ken Sumtana Malaysia taught people how to lead walks. Teaching people how to navigate and read maps. Started leading as coleader, then leader with supervision and it became clear he had an aptitude for it. Good hillwalker has a degree of fitness. Choose a leader with he same fitness level as you. The walk is only as fast as the slowest walker. About 5 hill walking clubs in Cork. Mountaineers, Cork Backpackers, Bishopstown is big club, Blarney and a few others. They dovetail into cycling as well. |
0.17.46 - 0.22.50 |
Writing books on Hillwalking Hill-walked on his own to research the books. Came across a slim guidebook on hillwalking and decided he could do it. So he wrote one on Mangerton. Impossible to get anyone to publish it so went to publish it himself but you end up with 3000 books in cardboard boxes. A guy in west Cork distributed small publishers’ books. Over 10 years he wrote 5 guide books. They made him a few thousand euro a year. Reeks, West Cork, County Cork. Books included: routes, maps, route descriptions, a little bit of history. Size of a letter about 50 pages and can fit in the pocket. Books became dated because places on the routes could no longer be accessed. “Trails Ireland” can be accessed on the internet. In France you cannot own up to the cliff face so the whole coastal area can be walked in France. It’s not the same here in Ireland. While in Ireland the old railway lines are being reopened more should be done to open the coastal area. Putting up barbed wire to stop people crossing the land. Success of Dungarvan Greenway Westport-Achill Cycle way Athlone to Mullingar route. Thinks we need more of that in the world we live in. If motorways can be built requiring land being baought up then it can be done. Mahon walk on Sundays Success of Ballincollig park or the lough for recreation. Common ownership will be taken up |
0.22.50 - 0.25.50 |
First impressions of Grattan Street & services over the years 26 years old when started in Grattan Street. Thought it would be a job for 6 months but stayed 35 years! Not much happening when he started. There were Public Health Nurses and Community Welfare Officers looked after people waiting for their dole or social welfare or interim payments. Initially Community Welfare gave out beds and blankets in Grattan Street but eventually it was thought this was demeaning and gave vouchers instead. Sean counts at least 15 different services run from Grattan Street during his time there: Public health nurses. Dental (came from City Hall), Schools Nurses (came from City Hall) Speech therapy, Social Health Education Project (SHEP) Psychology department, community workers, home help, podiatry, eye clinics, admin, Area medical officer European health insurance scheme, ophthalmic department, community welfare and Public Health Nurses At the moment [April 2019] 6 services remaining. Speech Therapy has moved to Western Road. Psychology moved to Blackpool. Most moved to bigger premises. Community Welfare moved to department of social welfare about 8 years ago. Grattan Street at any one time it had about 50 staff, 50 telephone extensions. Work for about 5 years and move on. Turnover of staff. About 150 or move staff have been Started as the youngest lemon and now is the “elder lemon” |
0.25.50 - 0.27.45
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Duties as the porter Opening & closing the building. Liaise with maintenance Male presence for security. What doesn’t come under someone else’s job description he does. Things that could never been written in a job description. Busy in mornings, quieter in the afternoons. Doing the post. |
0.27.45 - 0.30.55 |
Unique Atmosphere of Grattan Street Grattan Street has so many disciplines where people interact in a “friendship kind of way”. Big enough to have heart. But not so big that it becomes impersonal. Building itself is 150 years old. Happy story attached to the building wasn’t prison or psychiatric hospital. William Penn who founded Pennsylvania allegedly stayed a night in the building. Ghost of Grattan Street Becky Haughton ghost is supposed to haunt the place. Supposed to see her on the stairs at dusk. SHEP used to have meetings in Grattan Street at night. They heard a strange noise at night. Masonry had fallen onto filing cabinet in the store. |
0.30.55 - 0.33.16 |
Grattan Street Social life and Changes Files and vaccination records, nurses dressings kept in the stores. Grattan Street has heart, spirit and character. Happy, friendly building. Party at Christmas. 30 people. A nurse might play the violin, or poetry, or make an alcoholic punch or home baking. When he came here first was in his 20s and the nurses were in their 30s the nurses were into home baking these days it was more shop bought. |
0.33.16 - 0.34.55
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Stories: Theft and Letters Dentist in Grattan Street had an expensive “flash” car which was stolen. It had been used in robbery and recovered. SHEP started in half the canteen Psychologists were in Grattan Street who were sending two letters to the same address one to each of the Once broken into and one of the doctors felt it was a reflection on the state of his room when Sean couldn’t tell whether it had been broken into or not. |
0.34.55 - 0.35.20 |
Podiatrist Appointments No one was turning up for podiatrist appointments. Secretary had forgot to send out appointments. |
0.35.20 - 0.37.44 |
Events in Grattan Street Medical Centre Flooding 2013 had to move vaccines. They arrived in small car and they had to do two runs and ploughed there way through 2 and a half feet of water. Couldn’t stand the smell of perfume. Spray their room with perfume so she wouldn’t come in. AMO had gotten locked in by mistake by the cleaners. The fire brigade had to get her out with a ladder European health insurance card. Someone came saying he was annoyed his name was spelled wrong. They could only put 22 characters for the surname and he had 23, his name ended in a double-Z they had dropped a single Z and he accepted their explanation. |
0.37.44 - 0.41.46
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Unusual Incidents in Grattan Street Medical Centre Bank robbery on North Main Street. Bad was thrown over the back gate. Sean found 2 bags of money. Guards came and replaced them with dummy bags, Roches Stores bags. Man came into the building trying to steal things. He was confronted and left his mobile and found him through his mother’s number. Bad weather a few years ago. All the pipes had burst when Sean turned on the boiler. Front portion of the building flooded. Elderly man in his dressing gown and slippers outside podiatry. He had wandered down from the Mercy. |
0.41.46 - 0.43.01
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Patients Dying in the Building Two patients came to get their toenails done and they died. He was in his 90s and 5 years later almost to the day another man died and they cleared the building. |
0.43.01 - 0.44.14 |
Story of child driving a car Guy in car waiting for his dad. Spoon stuck in the ignition to start the car. Gone like a rally driver he was no more than 14. |
0.44.14 - 0.44.52
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Birds in Building. Arrives early 2 male blackbirds chased a female blackbird into the building. Arrives half an hour before the staff. Turned off lights and opened the big double doors. |
0.44.52 - 0.47.25
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Story of Heating Failure in Grattan Street & Organisational Error Heating failed in the building. No heating for about 5 days. 5 different staff phoned 5 seniors in 5 different departments and they all authorised 6 heaters for the building so that 30 heaters arrived. Thirty separate 3 kilowatt heaters were plugged in totalling 900 kilowatts which is far more than the building could take. Awful burning smell came from the waiting area, emanating from the fuse. Sean plugged out all the heaters for safety. In response to this he thinks that: ‘People don’t understand how their decisions interact with others’. |
0.47.25 - 0.49.37
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Poor Maintenance of Grattan Street Building In 34 years the building has been painted twice, three times at most. Windows are never cleaned. Rent a building in city how much would it cost and what would the maintenance for that be? You’d need to get a new car serviced. Never any more spent on the place. Plan was to install ten new windows a year. After the first ten no more were installed. Attic never insulated. Roof leaks. |
0.49.37 - 0.51.00 |
Change to the medical services with close of Grattan Street Services are moving out. Shame to lose a public building in the city centre. Every institution needs a city centre presence. New primary care centre 250 staff. Like wing of CUH. It will be great when it gets going. |
0.51.00 - 0.53.40
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Quakers, features of the building and staff routine Understands the Quakers gave building for use by HSE. Would like to see the building used as a city centre museum. People in wheelchairs can access the building without help. Getting a taxi for someone from the building is very fast. Staff use local supermarket for their coffees. Sean holds post & letters for the school during summer and Christmas. The type of bed available from the Community Welfare was very basic back in 1984, it was like an army bed. |
0.53.40 - 0.54.12
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Podiatry & Diabetes Couldn’t tell us about nursing. Thinks the podiatrist sees more diabetics these days than previously. |
0.54.12 - 0.55.26
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Reflection & Outlook on Life You can “what if” your life away. Married now. 50 when he got married. His 50s are his happiest decade. Everyone needs someone to share their life with. [interviewer states the year as 2009 but should have said 2019] Interview Ends |
He describes his routine on school days, attending St Aloysius school and awareness of tenement houses en route. All the family except his father who was traveling returned for a big meal at lunch time prepared by a local woman who worked for them. Always ate fish on Friday. Recalls respectability being very important.
He recalls the Haggart or “Haggy Field” at the bottom of Wyses Hill where “ponnies” or chamber pots were emptied.
He remembers family adversities: death of his mother, father’s heart attack and his brother’s autism.
He outlines more of his family history: paternal grandfather involved in construction of Fitzgerald’s park and the 1902 Cork Exhibition, maternal grandfather Cronin was a cattle dealer, Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road may be named after him.
He mentions pawn shops and how the family christening cups would “go missing” and be located in the local pawn. Also recalls a “shawlie” asking him to fill her a jug of porter from a bar as she did not want to be seen going inside herself.
He describes his Christian Brothers secondary school, the violence of corporal punishment, the teachers and cycling to and from school. Discusses the emphasis on rugby at the school, the elitism of this and the uniform. Reflects how in retrospect the school failed to address personal or emotional problems the pupils had. Mentions the one-day-a-week school nearby. Describes the Eglinton Baths.
Talks about studying for the Leaving Cert at Holy Trinity College with “Doc Payne” before attending UCC. Recalls studying and socialising at university before outlining his further medical training, specific cases in hospitals (North Infirmary, CUH (Cork University Hospital) and St. Finbarr’s) and ultimate career trajectory towards becoming a GP.
Reflects on improvements in medical care including vaccines, nutrition, public health and improving survival rates for many diseases. Remembers delivering his first baby and reviving a child who died from cardiac arrest.
Describes ultimately working on Grand Parade as a GP in the surgery of Dr Michael Cagney who had fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Discusses making house calls in “The Marsh” area, and the treatment of psychiatric problems.
Finally, Derek reflects on his career, the sense of guilt and hypervigilance instilled in his medical training, and how mistakes are made when not following your intuition.
]]>Originally from Winter’s Hill, Derek describes his home and family: siblings, grandmother, his GP mother and his father who worked in insurance. He outlines his mother’s tasks and equipment as a GP.
He describes his routine on school days, attending St Aloysius school and awareness of tenement houses en route. All the family except his father who was traveling returned for a big meal at lunch time prepared by a local woman who worked for them. Always ate fish on Friday. Recalls respectability being very important.
He recalls the Haggart or “Haggy Field” at the bottom of Wyses Hill where “ponnies” or chamber pots were emptied.
He remembers family adversities: death of his mother, father’s heart attack and his brother’s autism.
He outlines more of his family history: paternal grandfather involved in construction of Fitzgerald’s park and the 1902 Cork Exhibition, maternal grandfather Cronin was a cattle dealer, Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road may be named after him.
He mentions pawn shops and how the family christening cups would “go missing” and be located in the local pawn. Also recalls a “shawlie” asking him to fill her a jug of porter from a bar as she did not want to be seen going inside herself.
He describes his Christian Brothers secondary school, the violence of corporal punishment, the teachers and cycling to and from school. Discusses the emphasis on rugby at the school, the elitism of this and the uniform. Reflects how in retrospect the school failed to address personal or emotional problems the pupils had. Mentions the one-day-a-week school nearby. Describes the Eglinton Baths.
Talks about studying for the Leaving Cert at Holy Trinity College with “Doc Payne” before attending UCC. Recalls studying and socialising at university before outlining his further medical training, specific cases in hospitals (North Infirmary, CUH (Cork University Hospital) and St. Finbarr’s) and ultimate career trajectory towards becoming a GP.
Reflects on improvements in medical care including vaccines, nutrition, public health and improving survival rates for many diseases. Remembers delivering his first baby and reviving a child who died from cardiac arrest.
Describes ultimately working on Grand Parade as a GP in the surgery of Dr Michael Cagney who had fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Discusses making house calls in “The Marsh” area, and the treatment of psychiatric problems.
Finally, Derek reflects on his career, the sense of guilt and hypervigilance instilled in his medical training, and how mistakes are made when not following your intuition.
0.00.00 - 0.01.58 |
Family and House Grew up on Winter’s Hill between Blarney Street and Wyses Hill on northside of Cork. The third of 4 children all delivered by caesarean section. His mother was very small and the local GP, one of the first “lady doctors” of which there were only 4 or 5 at the time, and they covered for each other. Father worked in insurance and had a good job as assistant manager of insurance company. Mother worked full-time. Always family member in the house to help out, including a grandmother. An old male relative lived in the 3rd floor of the house. That wasn’t unusual, it wasn’t always one room per person. But it solved childminding issues. |
0.01.58 - 0.02.20 |
Grandmother Remembers grandmother’s lap, her dark blue apron with designs on it and knitting needles. She died when he was about 3. |
0.02.20 - 0.04.33 |
House and Mother’s GP Surgery 3 storey detached house, a bit unusual. Further back from the road than others, with passage in called “the passage”, hen house in front and back of house, which was normal at the time. Mother did house calls in the morning. In the evening they had to go to the dining room because the front room became the waiting room and she had her surgery upstairs. Learned young how to answer the phone. People might arrive with urine in a Paddy whiskey bottle. In retrospect she was checking pregnancies or urinary infections. He was frightened of her steriliser- an electric pot with instruments in it. Syringe needles were sharpened on an oil stone before being put in steriliser, and no one seemed to get infections. |
0.04.33 - 0.07.59 |
Routine/ Typical Day at Home & School Walked down Wyses Hill to school in St Al’s (St Aloysius) which was a girl’s school. Teachers Miss Brett, Miss Curran (Chris Curran’s sister maybe), Sister Aloysius in first class which was more challenging because she didn’t like the boys. There was two thirds girls in the class. At that time this was normal practice. Walked across Vincent’s bridge across by the Mercy Hospital and across by lark’s bridge. Recalls where the labour exchange is now (Intreo Centre Hanover Street) there were beautiful Georgian Houses (tenement houses) in terrible condition with lots of washing out and women out talking to each other and several generations playing, and that was normal. No one thought there was anything right or wrong with it, it was just the way it was. Went home for lunch, and often had soup and a main course especially in the winter time. A lighter meal in the evening. All the family returned home for lunch except his father who might be traveling to Bantry or Skibbereen which was a long way at the time. A lady prepared the meals for the family. People who worked in the house lived locally and were like members of the family. They might work for 2 or 3 years and move on, often when they got married. Someone else would come then, often by word of mouth, perhaps through his mother’s GP practice. Always ate fish on a Friday which he didn’t like. Suspects there was a rota for meals. ‘Meat and two vegetables’ was always the meal. Felt privileged to have that as not everyone could, and there was a good bit of poverty around. Recalls a “soundbite” from Blarney Street: “Johnny come in for your rasher and two eggs!” There was a great respectability, everyone respected everyone else and there wasn’t any talking down to people- it wasn’t acceptable.
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0.07.59 - 0.09.49 |
Playing near Home & the Haggard Didn’t get out of the house all that much. Played football outside the door for a while. Area called “the Haggy” across from where they lived, the Haggard* which was a kind of wasteland roughly where fancy apartments at bottom of Wyses hill are now. People used to dump their “ponnies”** in the old days. It wasn’t regarded as a place you’d go, it was just a steep hill. But people went there with their (chamber) pots. But the stigma of it not being a clean place remained even maybe 100 years after running water and sewage came in. So when playing football if the ball went down the haggy no one wanted to fetch it. Was not allowed to go out to play football, mother would have had a “conniption fit” had she known they were out doing that. [*Haggard or Haggart: A farmyard or small enclosed field; a vegetable patch or kitchen garden. Or area adjacent to the farm yard or what once was a farm yard. Traditionally this was an enclosed area on a farm for stacking hay, grain or other fodder. (sources: Wiktionary, meathfieldnames.com] **[ponny or ponnie: earthenware or metal pot or mug (Source: A Dictionary of Hiberno-English: The Irish Use of English ed. Terence Dolan)] |
0.09.49 - 0.12.43 |
Family, Changes and Adversity Mother died when he was 13. Dad had had 1st heart attack previous year and he had retired from work and started an insurance brokerage as a hobby. Sister Catherine did medicine and went to America and didn’t want to return. Different doctors tried to keep mother’s GP practice going. Older brother in insurance now retired. Younger brother Michael born hypothyroid and had severe autism slept in his room and found it normal to share a room with a practically non-verbal brother. Remarks on how people what people can accept as normal even if inconvenient and that people are strong in the face of adversity. Discusses the resentment and rage which is normalised by the internet which has also contributed to the polarisation of politics “it’s as if only extremes are correct”. History suggests consensus is what works. The manipulation of social media has contributed to this phenomenon. |
0.12.43 - 0.14.47 |
Mother, her GP work and her car Mother was very bubbly. Black hair with white stripe in the centre very careful about appearance hair was always done properly. Very hard worker with patients and at home. Expected high level of neatness and cleanness. She had a bubble car maybe 200cc with a door in the front. She covered other GPs. She went to Hettyfield and left 10 year old Derek doing his homework in the bubblecar. A 13 year old girl asked what it was and said “ours is a Consul Cortina”. The first time Derek felt his car might not be adequate. Bubble car had two seats at front one at back entered from the front. Recalls 4 children and his mother in the car! That was normal. |
0.14.47 - 0.16.53 |
Mother & Father: Backgrounds and relatives Mother and father put great store in education. She was youngest of 11 and one of the first to go to university. Dad was youngest of 17 children many in the family had been engineers. Derek’s grandfather had been married twice. Derek’s paternal grandfather died in 1917 before his father was born. Paternal grandfather was a builder/engineer/contractor had a lot to do with building of Fitzgerald’s Park, he has photographs of the grandfather with his workers dressed in Victorian outfits for the Cork Exhibition (1902 probably). Maternal grandfather was cattle-dealer Cronin. They lived up in Fair Hill which was subject to a compulsory purchase order in the 1960s by Cork corporation. Google maps lists Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road, assumes that this was the same field. Knew relatives at top of Hollyhill who were farming until Hollyhill as we know it was build. |
0.16.53 - 0.18.04 |
Pawnshops and stolen goods Two pawnshops on Lavitt’s Quay and one at bottom of Patrick’s Hill. Doesn’t recall who ran them. The Christening Cups were stolen a few times by the same person from the waiting room in the house and were located by the Gardaí in the local pawn shop. |
0.18.04 - 0.21.36 |
Secondary School: transport, teachers, shawlies, baths Went to Christian Brother’s College (CBC) after St Aloysius, his grandfather, father and brother had gone there. One teacher Mr Richard McCarthy known as Dicky Rashers called Derek by his father’s name because he had taught him as well. The story with Dicky Rashers was that he had dietary issues and after Christmas an announced that he had had rashers. He was a nice man. If it was raining they got the number 14 bus down Wyses Hill which came every 20 minutes. They used to hide because Dicky Rashers would offer them a lift which they didn’t want from a teacher. Also cycled to school. Got wheels caught in railway track going to Eglinton Baths. Those railway bridges opened until the 1970s. Goods trains and Guinness trains used to cross over them. Cycled up Patrick’s Hill to get to the Christian’s rugby field (Landsdowne). Cycled down the hill when it was raining, breaks failed and stopped where Brown Thomas is now. Only 4 or 5 cars on Blarney Street at the time. When 15 a shawlie stopped him near the Templeacre Bar (Gurranebraher Road) and she gave him a pint jug and asked him get her Guinness from the snug. She would not be seen going into the pub but wanted her Guinness. |
0.21.36 - 0.24.09 |
Secondary school teachers Christians was somewhat elitist which a lot of people were not comfortable with. Many teachers were old and not qualified teachers. Mr Murphy taught him art for leaving cert, but he had been teaching junior infants. He was very small his feet would not touch the ground when sitting on a desk. Mr Townshend music teacher and great musician. All characters. Violence of corporal punishment, queuing around the classroom to answer questions on Geography or Latin. If you weren’t very academic you got a lot of beatings on the hands. Some of those less academic pupils became very successful businessmen. The Christian brother told the boys in the B class to be nice to boys in the C class because they might need to get a job from them later. |
0.24.09 - 0.26.04 |
Secondary Schools in general, elitism & ‘One Day a Week School’ The uniform was part of the school’s elitism. There was a school nearby “the Wana” (one day a week) and there was a clear difference between them and CBC. CBC had disciplined and scheduled classes all day. The one day a week school pupils were obeying the law, 12 or 13 years old selling papers to make money. They had to attend school until a certain age. People with dyslexia were beaten and treated with contempt. Scoil Mhuire girls private school was nearby and quite posh. Around the corner was St Angela’s was less posh. Rivalry between Christians and Pres (PBC, Presentation Brothers College). |
0.26.04 - 0.27.22 |
Secondary School: lack of empathy, attitudes towards sports Was in first year of secondary school when mother died. There was no recognition of that in school and he dropped from A class to B class. A little help would have gone a long way. In retrospect there were probably a number of pupils with ongoing issues which were never addressed by the school, while the emphasis was on playing rugby. Rugby in Cork was elitist then too. Derek joined Tramore Athletic soccer club. A cousin played tennis quite well and a Christian brother said “why wouldn’t he take up a boy’s game?” |
0.27.22 - 0.28.44 |
Eglinton Baths, swimming, chipper Eglinton Baths had a boys’ pool and a girls’ pool. Probably 25 yards. White tiles with balcony around each pool. Communal hot showers, but the pool itself was freezing and stinking of chlorine. “It wasn’t unusual to be blue and wet!”. Went home via Maylor Street and went Matt Kiely’s chip shop to warm up a bit. |
0.28.44 - 0.29.30 |
Changes after mother’s death, father’s career Younger brother went into full-time care when his mother died. And his dad was involved in local politics and trying to run a business. He was a Fine Gael councillor for over 20 years in the North Central part of Cork which would have been unusual. He was involved in the health board and the building of the regional hospital. He was chairman of the hospital board for years and of the health board. |
0.29.30 - 0.31.36 |
Repeating the Leaving Cert with Dr Paye Derek always assumed that he would be a doctor. He was offered a place in dentistry in college which he declined. His dad got him into the Holy Trinity College on Washington Street “Doc Paye’s” which was a military camp for getting your leaving certificate. He is grateful to Dr Paye and Miss Paye. For this school your hair was cut very tight, you wore a humiliating uniform, “you arrived on time or you didn’t arrive at all”. Mixed class, boys wore black, girls wore red with tartan. Every class was structured 45 minutes and took serious notes. They had studied the leaving cert papers and knew what needed to be learned. Still sees Dr Paye around and she must be a good age. |
0.31.38 - 0.34.15 |
First experience of University: courses and social and sport life After he resat the leaving cert he went to UCC in a course call First Common Science. This was an experiment when Pre-Med and Pre-Dent courses were done away with. In First Common Science you competed for your course. Had little experience of social mixing, and enjoyed going to the Kampus Kitchen (Campus Kitchen) to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee, and drink beer in the evening if you could afford it. First Common Science was not a problem because of the work done in Dr Paye’s. 60 got into medicine, 20 into dentistry and the rest did other science degrees maybe dairy science and science. Glad he got to mix and get to know more people. Thinks that his son who went to Trinity to do medicine probably missed out on that aspect of social life as he went straight into medicine. Small group of people in his course. There used to be rugby matches in the quarry in UCC where the Boole Library is now. The pitch was very muddy in winter. Dentistry were not able to field a team as there were not enough men doing the course. Playing the quarry you were just as good as everyone else because everyone was terrible. |
0.34.15 - 0.37.39 |
University: playing cards, betting, debating society, studying For the first year or two Kampus Kitchen was the place to play cards and a lot of money was won and lost there. He stopped playing cards because he saw people lose their grants. He once lost the money to be spent on a shirt for the Med Ball and had to attend with a pink shirt. As regards clubs and societies looking back he thinks he should have attended the Philosoph (UCC Philosophical Society, college debating society). People who were from Cork probably got less involved in clubs and societies, whereas those living on or near campus would have become more involved. Thinks the Philosoph would have broadened his education, mentions how Theo Dorgan was there during his time in college and thinks that Theo got a broader education compared to the narrower field of medicine. His education was greatly advanced in 2nd Year Medicine while in the library fretting about a physiology exam maybe 2 weeks before the exam. A mature student around 35 years old told him “the information in a book is inversely proportional to its size”.
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0.37.39 - 0.39.37 |
What’s needed to become a doctor and to practice No one asks him as a doctor where he came in his class, and it wouldn’t make a difference anyway. Many people who were academically gifted would not have been suited to being doctors. Is concerned that a medical education which requires strong left-sided brain skills to remember and regurgitate material may not produce great communicators and not great doctors. Someone with an average IQ could be a very good doctor. The economics of being a doctor suggest that maybe it should not be so attractive for people and they would be better in IT or science. Once you qualify in medicine that is only the beginning: you have to graft for jobs, get relevant experience and only then try to make a living. It’s just a primary degree unlike dentistry where you are a qualified dentist once you complete the degree |
0.39.37 - 0.42.48 |
Working in North Infirmary: learning, some memorable cases Went to the North Infirmary. Lovely hospital to work in, was very well-treated. Very hard work. 3 medical interns, 3 surgery interns, maybe 2 SHO (Senior House Officer) and 2 Registrars. Recalls first night he was on for surgery when a patient from motorbike accident was to arrive in and the SHO left before the patient arrived. Nurses were excellent. Learned how to do things. Learned how to recognise cases that were too hot to handle. When on call started 9am Friday finished Monday at 5. There were very few GPs out of hours so got big queues in North Infirmary. Went to bed 4am one Sunday morning and he was told there was a young man with chest pain. The young man looked pale and sweaty and was wearing ex-army jacket which was “all the rage” at the time. Discovered that the man had been playing darts, had gotten a dart in the back and had a chest full of blood. Learned to be careful and not take things at face value. Another night a man was brought in by his friends. At the time Match of the Day (football highlights and analysis TV programme on BBC) was at 7pm or 8pm. The man had been in the pub and “his leg was swinging in the breeze”, he had fallen off a bar stool and broken his hip around 7:30pm but had stayed in the pub until Match of the Day was over before coming to hospital. |
0.42.48 - 0.51.04 |
Changes in healthcare: preventative medicine, vaccination, alcohol Suggests people may have been tougher in the past. Then reflects on the improvements in medicine and that “the good old days weren’t so good”, people didn’t live as long, not vaccinated, poor nutrition. As nutrition improved children became taller than their parents. Improvements in prognosis. Enthusiastic about preventative medicine. Although the medical card system did not take that into account, doctors were not paid for vaccinations on the medical card but they did it anyway. Gay Byrne encouraged people to get the measles vaccine. And there was a change in the demographics of the measles incidents over two years after that. Didn’t see cases of measles for 15-20 years, and it only reappeared when anti-vaxers (anti vaccination campaigners) appeared. Thinks it’s a scandal. Vaccination for measles is not individual it is based on herd immunity it requires 80-90% of the population to be vaccinated or the vulnerable will get it: people with immunodeficiency, leukaemia, chemotherapy. Discusses the changes in gender demographics in relation to cardio-vascular diseases and risk factors. There had been an economic difficulty with alcohol-you could only afford a small amount of alcohol (or cigarettes). But now alcohol is cheaper and cigarettes are more expensive. Mentions the trend of pre-drinking. Suggests problems of alcohol appear to occur further north of the equator. Discusses the off-licenses in Sweden where you had to order alcohol a bit like the system of ordering products in Argos. If your order for alcohol exceeded accepted level you were not served. This didn’t prevent people drinking as they made their own. Discusses the positive effect of smoking ban and the way people use the “nanny state” argument to oppose basic public health measures. Talks about the improvements in treatments and survival rates particularly for cancers and cardio vascular diseases. Compares this to reactions of indignation. Points out the hidden nature of preventative health care which can be effective but is rarely seen of credited. Preventative care is also less well understood compared with waiting times for doctors or ambulances, number of hospital beds. Thinks the question should be about quality of life and what can be done to improve it. |
0.51.04 - 0.52.47 |
North Infirmary working routine, cost of hospitals In north infirmary there was a doctors’ room and dining room where you had your own seat and there was a colour television which was unusual at the time. 6 interns. You worked every day and every third night as well and every third weekend. But if someone was on holidays you had to work every second one. The cost of a bed per night in the hospital was £80 and when it was closed the cost in other hospitals was £200-£300 per night. Discusses the merits of centres of excellence and lower-tech hospitals. |
0.52.47 - 0.57.07 |
Further training in St Finbarr’s & CUH, reviving a child, CPR After North Infirmary did obs and gynae (obstetrics and gynaecology) in St Finbarr’s Hospital and CUH (Cork University Hospital). Great training, lovely, practical and kind obstetricians. A small nurse Sister Tutor called him at night for a mother giving birth. The nurse cleverly directed him in delivering the baby with a forceps while making it seem like he was the one doing all the work. “Without the nurses we’d be nowhere”. His daughter is a nurse and sees how knowledgeable and capable they are at the coal face. Unwise for doctors to ignore what nurses say. The importance of everyone being on the same team. Recalls an A and E (accident and emergency) nurse who had all the equipment ready while the doctor was looking up what was to be done. Recalls a child around 7 years old who was dead from cardiac arrest after getting electrocuted on a Saturday afternoon. They used intubation, put up a drip, drugs, cardiac massage, and defibrillation. They didn’t have time to look up dosages they divided them amounts by 4 for a child. They had a good success rate at reviving dead bodies in North Infirmary- community response is key today. “an ambulance on its way doesn’t keep your heart beating.” Believes everyone should learn the basics of CPR. Recalls CPR in his GP practice. |
0.57.07 - 0.58.50 |
Further medical training and useful A & E experience After obs and gynae he did paediatrics, psychiatry, and a year in A and E where he learned that a little smile went a long way. Talked about how to politely and carefully deal with cases which were not serious enough to be in A and E. Public who might be waiting all day did not see the very serious cases that were happening out of sight. It was good training for a GP practice. |
0.58.50 - 1.04.21 |
Own GP practice, Dr Cagney’s GP practice & Spanish Civil War, Set up own GP practice on northside in their house. Found it lonely because there were so few patients coming in. He then practiced with Dr Michael Cagney until he got a stroke. Dr Michael Cagney was a remarkable man, big burly, chain-smoking man very kind to people. He would tell people to give up cigarettes while he was smoking at the same time. He was doing surgery and he returned to GP practice because he father had been running a practice but became ill. When Dr Michael Cagney sat his leaving cert he was too young to go to college so his dad and General Eoin O’Duffy decided to send him to fight in the Spanish Civil War. He rarely spoke about his time in that war, and must have been traumatised by it. He probably thought he was going out “to help the raped nuns.” Many people from Ireland went to fight in that war. And it was not that long ago. Reflects on children today being used as soldiers in other countries, and being involved in drug gangs in Ireland and on those who leave to fight for Al Qaeda today and crusaders in the past. Dr Michael Cagney was probably born around 1920. The practice was in 51 Grand Parade, 2 floors up. It was a very good practice, he was very ethical and kept very good notes on large A4 file in alphabetical order which was probably unusual for the time. They used the Merck Manual which was an encyclopaedia of therapeutics. You could ring surgeons for advice. There was a great sense of responsibility and great collegiality. Refers to the changing ways of doctors referring patients to hospitals. |
1.04.21 - 1.06.09 |
First day in new GP Practice, changes in care, responses to bad cases Remembers first day in Dr Michael Cagney’s practice which was in a back room and patients wanted to see Dr Cagney rather than Derek: “With respect to you doctor I’d like to see the doctor!” After time people came to see him specifically. Did everything, including: antenatal, postnatal and smears- it was perfectly normal for a male doctor to do a smear in those days before there were headline cases of doctors who did the wrong thing. Derek became deskilled in that area because it was too much of a risk. Suggests that new practices are often introduced in response to hard cases. Mentions the response to the Dr Harold Shipman murders in England where GPs had to list the number of patients they had who died in one year to prevent a similar case. One GP made a mistake in their statistics and rang up to clarify them, but was told no one would ever read the statistics so it didn’t matter. Says that lots of information is gathered but never really used. |
1.06.09 - 1.08.05 |
Learning on the job, diseases not disappearing Dr Michael Cagney learned surgery but had to learn paediatrics on the job. Thinks most people of average intelligence can learn very quickly when put in a situation. Recalls a patient with a rheumatic heart and the hospital intern found it hard to believe. Derek says “diseases don’t go away they’re just waiting for you to forget that they happen”. Thinks there will be more outbreaks of diseases due to lack of vaccination. Polio outbreak in Amsterdam 20 years ago. “diseases don’t go away because you are sophisticated or rich or white.” |
1.08.05- 1.09.51 |
Attitudes to vaccination, TB Treatments in Cork Discusses the positive attitude towards vaccination in the past. People had seen children with whooping cough and adults who had holes in their lungs because of it. Doctors had patients who had limps from polio epidemic in Cork in 1950s, knows of a patient who died of post-polio syndrome in their 70s. TB was common but few admitted to having it- stigma associated with it comparable to leprosy or HIV. Mentions Mr Hickey in Sarsfield’s Court who was able to collapse lungs and do pioneering surgery to treat TB. Thinks vaccination is question of statistics not opinion. |
1.09.51 - 1.12.20 |
Routine as GP: house calls, pager, patients not going to hospital Typical day started around 9am. Might do 10 house calls in a day because people didn’t go to hospital or if they did not for very long. House calls were also more common back then because of the lack of transport options for patients. Discusses the pager service, finding a public pay phone and how getting in contact with a patient an hour after they used the pager was considered fast. Dealt with a lot of pathology at home if patients did not wish to go to hospital. Could visit a patient at home every day for a week or two if they had a serious condition. It was very gratifying when patients recovered. |
1.12.20 - 1.15.06 |
Public Health Nurse care Had little contact with the Grattan Street dispensary and health centre. Mentions the dental service there, ophthalmologist Dr O’Sullivan and public health nurses (PHNs). When doing the membership of general practice in London he was not believed when he said there were only 2 PHNs for Cork city centre. PHNs medical care had a physical, psychological and social side. Knows that dispensary doctors had limited treatments: “blue tablets, red tablets and liquids”. They worked before the medical card system, which he thinks came in the 1970s. When Derek became a doctor the system was ‘fee per item’ you were paid a small amount for each thing you did as a GP. Everything had to be written in a duplicate book. |
1.15.06 - 1.17.52 |
‘The Marsh’ memories. Case of anaemic man Dad was in the St Vincent De Paul and many in the Marsh were living with 2 or 3 families (in some case 5 families) living in the same big Georgian Houses. Many of these were knocked down in the 50s and 60s and many moved to Cathedral Road and Fair Hill. Some families had lived for generations in the Marsh. Recalls visiting a man a PHN was concerned about. Man lived with his dog and had a picture of Elvis on one wall and Jesus on the other. He was very anaemic but wouldn’t go to hospital. The remedy was some injections of B12, iron and oral folic acid and Meals on Wheels. Believes the problem was nutritional- living on spam sandwiches. |
1.17.52 - 1.20.35 |
People with psychiatric problems lived in the community in the past, now are being hospitalised Some people who lived in the city centre had come from elsewhere where may have been rejected. Some had mild schizophrenia or personality problems. They came to live in the anonymity of town. Many muddled along living in bedsits and had as much company as they wished. Now similar cases are put in hospital maybe in situations that do not suit them. Discusses the idea of putting anyone with psychiatric problems into the same category. Compares how we treat other illnesses- there is no “abdominal ward” which would treat a huge array of different illnesses, these are catered for separately. Similarly he thinks it doesn’t make sense to put people who are depressed or hearing voices in the same place as those with an eating disorder. Does not think the problem will be solved by additional money alone. |
1.20.35 - 1.21.40 |
Ability of people to cope. Publican ran bar walking on her knees Highlights the extraordinary ability of people to cope. Recalls an elderly lady (who probably had polio) and ran a bar walking on her knees on a bench behind the counter. Thinks that today there is more a demand for everything to be perfect and this can lead to unhappiness. |
1.21.40 - 1.24.15 |
Reflects on career, mistakes and medical training Thinks that when he made mistakes it was because he had ignored the inner voice that suggested something didn’t smell right. One of the things that was instilled in learning to be a doctor was basic guilt. The default was guilt, the sense that if something went wrong it must be your fault. That is the downside of medicine: trained into a guilt-trip. Makes you vigilant all the time which can be tiring. Wouldn’t change anything, felt privileged and happy to meet people and make a connection and friends. It wasn’t possible to be friends with your patients, there had to be a dividing line, though he is friends with them now. You couldn’t do business with or have a relationship or a social life with a patient. Peggy Cronin O’Connell and Vincent O’Connell were his parents’ names. Interview Ends 1.24.15 |
Recalls as a teenager being told by a doctor who was smoking to give up smoking. Comments on how widespread smoking was at the time. Humorous story about asking a Garda for a cigarette.
Story of Cork character ‘Kick the Bucket’, a young man who was convinced he was going to die very soon but lived to be 81.
Speaks of playing on the streets of The Marsh and The Middle Parish as a child and how they would go to the Mercy Hospital if they were injured playing football. Describes rival groups of boys from Grattan Street and the Coal Quay having fruit throwing fights.
Describes how as a child he used a skull from a tomb in St Peter’s Cemetery to use as a Jack O Lantern. Returns to the topic of underage smoking and acquiring cigarettes from adults.
Explains a form of recycling where he collected empty glass bottles to return to a shop in exchange for money. He used the money for cigarettes and matches or to pay for a cinema ticket. Recalls Dermot’s Cake shop on Adelaide Street.
Talks about his passion for fishing, avoiding the bailiff and selling his fish catch to local fish and chip shops. Tells of his fishing rob being confiscated by the bailiff and retrieving it.
Mentions children taking sweets from a shop on Sheares Street without paying for them.
Discusses income inequality and buying clothes on the Coal Quay. Explains how he made floats for fishing from wine bottle corks made by his dad’s friend for Woodford Bourne’s on Sheares Street.
Reflects on crime and safety in the city centre and tells the story of a house being burgled where the owner shouted out that he had nothing worth stealing.
Outlines some long standing Grattan Street residents’ concerns about their neighbourhood today including students, student parties, students drinking on the street, cark parks, bus routes, student accommodation, Edel House, increased traffic, methodone clinics, community Gardaí and the HSE’s use of buildings in the city centre.
Remembers Shawlies on the Coal Quay, including his own grandmother. Describes the products sold there and farmers bringing vegetables with dirt on them by horse and cart. Mentions Ryan’s Pub on North Main Street and how the farmers might frequent it.
Speaks of the simple food and meals he ate, and how his shoes were pawned but bought back in time to wear for mass.
Recalls the violence and fear of St Joseph’s School and wanting to leave to go fishing. Speaks of his preference for St. Francis School where he was not beaten and learned a lot. Outlines getting food and cocoa in the morning at school. Tells the story of a father confronting a Presentation Brother for an excessive beating to his son.
Talks about food and his mother making bread and mentions other foods and treats from his grandmother.
Speaks about fatal diseases in the past including mumps. To receive medication in the dispensary you had to bring your own empty bottle.
Speaks about the work of the Middle Parish Community Centre especially in relation to addiction. This prompts Joe to speak of his own story of dealing with his alcohol addiction, the risks alcohol posed to his health, liver disease, his desire to see his grandchildren grow up and his happiness now he has successfully remained sober for many years.
Mentions the Barrett family who lived in the dispensary building.
]]>Joe recalls the dispensary on Grattan Street, its waiting room and the names of the doctors who worked there. He describes in detail his visit there to get a vaccination as a child. Discusses medical treatments administered at home by his mother including those for fleas and head lice.
Recalls as a teenager being told by a doctor who was smoking to give up smoking. Comments on how widespread smoking was at the time. Humorous story about asking a Garda for a cigarette.
Story of Cork character ‘Kick the Bucket’, a young man who was convinced he was going to die very soon but lived to be 81.
Speaks of playing on the streets of The Marsh and The Middle Parish as a child and how they would go to the Mercy Hospital if they were injured playing football. Describes rival groups of boys from Grattan Street and the Coal Quay having fruit throwing fights.
Describes how as a child he used a skull from a tomb in St Peter’s Cemetery to use as a Jack O Lantern. Returns to the topic of underage smoking and acquiring cigarettes from adults.
Explains a form of recycling where he collected empty glass bottles to return to a shop in exchange for money. He used the money for cigarettes and matches or to pay for a cinema ticket. Recalls Dermot’s Cake shop on Adelaide Street.
Talks about his passion for fishing, avoiding the bailiff and selling his fish catch to local fish and chip shops. Tells of his fishing rob being confiscated by the bailiff and retrieving it.
Mentions children taking sweets from a shop on Sheares Street without paying for them.
Discusses income inequality and buying clothes on the Coal Quay. Explains how he made floats for fishing from wine bottle corks made by his dad’s friend for Woodford Bourne’s on Sheares Street.
Reflects on crime and safety in the city centre and tells the story of a house being burgled where the owner shouted out that he had nothing worth stealing.
Outlines some long standing Grattan Street residents’ concerns about their neighbourhood today including students, student parties, students drinking on the street, cark parks, bus routes, student accommodation, Edel House, increased traffic, methodone clinics, community Gardaí and the HSE’s use of buildings in the city centre.
Remembers Shawlies on the Coal Quay, including his own grandmother. Describes the products sold there and farmers bringing vegetables with dirt on them by horse and cart. Mentions Ryan’s Pub on North Main Street and how the farmers might frequent it.
Speaks of the simple food and meals he ate, and how his shoes were pawned but bought back in time to wear for mass.
Recalls the violence and fear of St Joseph’s School and wanting to leave to go fishing. Speaks of his preference for St. Francis School where he was not beaten and learned a lot. Outlines getting food and cocoa in the morning at school. Tells the story of a father confronting a Presentation Brother for an excessive beating to his son.
Talks about food and his mother making bread and mentions other foods and treats from his grandmother.
Speaks about fatal diseases in the past including mumps. To receive medication in the dispensary you had to bring your own empty bottle.
Speaks about the work of the Middle Parish Community Centre especially in relation to addiction. This prompts Joe to speak of his own story of dealing with his alcohol addiction, the risks alcohol posed to his health, liver disease, his desire to see his grandchildren grow up and his happiness now he has successfully remained sober for many years.
Mentions the Barrett family who lived in the dispensary building.
0.00.00 - 0.00.30 |
Intro |
0.00.30 - 0.01.41 |
Memories of dispensary and Vaccination Dispensary was a beautiful looking building especially as it was surrounded by tenements. Barrett family were caretakers. 6 GPs worked there and remembers 4: Dr Galvin (low-sized woman), Dr Jimmy Young (who played hurling for Cork), Dr Kiely (male), Dr Michael Cagney his family’s GP, delivered him and his brother at home. Waiting room was like church seats. His mother usually brought with him. |
0.01.41 - 0.06.06 |
Vaccination in the Dispensary Grattan Street Vaccination: his dad brought him. Front door was in Grattan Street. Queue of boys outside. None of the boys who came out looked happy, they all suffered from the fear and pain. Joe was about 8 years old. Instrument doctor had was like a branding iron for cattle or a bolt. The needle was the size of a nail. Dad held his wrist and arm very tight. His dad brought him for ice-cream afterwards. When he was 12 there was another round of vaccines and he was determined not to take them until he discovered they were like sugar cubes not needles. |
0.06.06 - 0.09.24 |
Fleas and Head Lice treatment Everyone had fleas and headlice, but some of his friends still deny that they had it possibly out of shame. Everyone left their doors open, as they had nothing to rob. Dads got paid on Friday night and there was a small party at the weekend- raspberry and crisps in the pub. Went to the dispensary to get prescription for head lice. When mother cut his hair she put it in newspaper and threw it in fire and you could hear fleas and lice banging. “Scabs and bits of hair here and there” You could see dead fleas and lice on the back of other boys collars in school. DDT “defestor” Mrs Shinnick? Pharmacist gave them a green bottle which smelled. The liquid burned the scalp. Fine tooth comb to get the dead lice out. The smell would last for hours. And in school the following day people would recognise it and know you had had lice. |
0.09.24 - 0.10.53 |
Smoking Doctor trying to get him to give up smoking Dr Jimmy Young (or maybe Dr Cagney) moved to a private clinic on the South Mall. Joe was smoking as a young teenager. If he was caught a neighbour would kick him in the arse before telling his dad. His dad never hit him but would put his hands on his belt which was sufficient threat. Dad brought him to Dr Young to be told how bad smoking was. And while he was telling Joe to give up cigarettes he was smoking a Woodbine cigarette at the time. People smoked everywhere except church. |
0.10.53 - 0.12.07 |
Dared to ask Garda for a cigarette Doesn’t drink or smoke now. Had to take a dare when asked by a friend. Friend dared him to ask a Garda for a cigarette. Garda kicked him in the arse. Walked like John Wayne for a week! |
0.12.07 - 0.15.30 |
‘Kick the Bucket’: hypochondriac ‘character’ in Dispensary A head cold was serious at times. Practically impossible to get a house call from a doctor. So they would be bundled up in sheets like a mummy and transported to the dispensary. Mother saw a man in the waiting room nicknamed “Kick the Bucket” because he was a hypochondriac convinced he was going to die soon. Joe saw him as he got older and went to the doctor on his own. Kick the Bucket died at 81 and the news spread faster than the fire at the Opera House or Jennings. |
0.15.30 - 0.15.46 |
End of Dispensary After a while doctors got their private surgeries and A&Es accident and Emergencies opened. The dispensary sort of dwindled out. |
0.15.46 - 0.16.42 |
Grattan Street injuries Playing as Children Lots of memories from around Grattan Street area. Born on Devonshire Street near Pat MacDonald Paints, and there was a big population living in the Marsh. More than 100 children playing on the streets around Peter Street and Grattan Street. Alleyways, where car parks are now, there were their soccer pitches. They counted 120 potholes in their soccer pitch, big enough to fall knee deep into. If you fell in you could twist an ankle or break a leg. Friends would lift you out of the way of the pitch but you had to crawl to the Mercy Hospital yourself because the match had to go on. |
0.16.42 - 0.18.59 |
Battles and fights with rival groups of boys Their rivals were the Coal Quay boys. Saturday evening they would raid the Coal Quay for the left over rotten fruit. They had timber palettes set up as a barricade and after 12 o’clock mass on a Sunday the Coal Quay boys would come. (had to go to mass otherwise someone would tell the Presentation Brother or you parents. Joe did miss a few) Battering match would start. Rotten apples. Soggy bananas. Tomatoes were the best. No stones. Whoever ran out of ammunition first you had to run away. 30 guys running down Coleman’s Lane would be easy targets. But the Marsh lads could spread out on Grattan Street. |
0.18.59 - 0.24.29 |
Halloween skull as Jack O Lantern from Tomb in St Peters There was no real fighting just wrestling. Maybe some fighting with firsts. No kicking someone in the head. Boxing with community centre against Mitchelstown. Joe couldn’t hit a small boxer and they had to stop the fight. Around the same time it was Halloween in St Peter’s graveyard all the tombs and headstones were in the centre not along the side. They were able to get into the tombs and went in with a match and were surrounded by bones in the dark. Didn’t need pumpkins they decided they would get a nightlight scandal, buy matches from Mr Barry and get a skull from the tomb and scares girls. Heard something moving in the tomb one night. His dad was a postman and he had a big torch but Joe could never find it when he wanted it. Always bring cigarette butts out of the tomb. Used safety pins to get the most out of the cigarette. |
0.24.29 - 0.26.24
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Cigarettes and getting money from empty bottles 8pm in the evening and at 8am the doctors and surgeons left or arrived at the Mercy Hospital, and they could’ve smoked in their offices at the time. Doctors sometimes threw away a cigar butt. Sometimes the children followed a doctor for 10 minutes and he might not throw the butt away! As they got older they went to Mr Barry’s shop and could get 2 fags (cigarettes) and a match for an empty bottle of Lucozade, which they could get from the Mercy Hospital. All the glasses were returnable at the time. They decided to take more bottles. 2 bottles would get you 4p four pence and you could go to the pictures (cinema) for 3p thruppence (three pence) and have money left over for cigarettes and a match. Tanora bottles from Jennings. |
0.26.24 - 0.31.03 |
Fishing for Money trouble with the Bailiff Dermot’s Cake shop on Adelaide street best cakes and creamy milks straight form the cow. Decided to take up poaching to get some money. Lots of mullet and salmon in the river at the time. Was rarely caught poaching because he could plank (hide) them at home within a few seconds. Sold them to Burns on Douglas Street, the Uptown Grill in MacCurtain Street (which must have lasted 60 years) the woman there said to bring over any more because they’re so fresh the blood is still hot in them! Mr Hurley the bailiff caught him occasionally and took his fishing rod and reported him to his mother and tell her to send Joe over to collect his fishing rod. He’d ask which rod was his in a room full of confiscated rods. Joe’s was the cheapest “Black Prince” but he’d get a more expensive one. Needed money for cinema and chips. Best two chippers: Hayden’s on Shandon Street and Kiely’s on Maylor Street. Wrapped in newspaper, lots of vinegar and salt. Tastiest part was to squeeze the vinegar out of the newspaper even with the dye running in it. Slogging apples down the Mardyke selling to woman Dooney Dawney. |
0.31.03 - 0.34.24
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Money & Sweets: Selling fishing Rod & tricking shopkeeper Sold the rod for money to an angler and bought a cheap rod again. He was a well-known angler on the Lee. Good anglers and fairly good anglers but luck plays a big part. Ahern sisters owned a shop a Sheare Street (Sheares Street). Penny bars and sweets ‘blackjack’, ‘cough no more’, ‘macaroon’ (Erinmore tobacco). Asked for penny bar that was up high so she would have to climb up and they would take a bar from the lower shelf. They once took it in turns to ask how much a bar was even thought they were all a penny and she eventually banned them all for life from the shop. It took them a year or two to get back on good terms. |
0.34.24- 0.35.55
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Safety of City in Past, Making floats for fishing, Social & Income Inequality Never any trouble when growing up. Joe’s 2nd eldest son is 38 lives on Northside, daughter on the southside and eldest son still lives in the Marsh. His children would say the Marsh was a great place to rear children. Where the Woolshed Bar [on Sheares Street] is now used to be Woodford Bournes the wine makers. And on the corner Paddy worked the guillotine to make ‘the corkies’ corks for the wine bottles for Woodford Bournes. Joe’s dad was a friend of Paddy & “they used have a drink together”. Joe would go to Paddy for bits of cork to make floats for fishing. He would bore a hole through the cork for the fishing line. “so we got everything for nothing”. Even got clothes from Coal Quay for very little. Some of his friends deny that they ever wore clothes from the Coal Quay. Joe thinks there was no in between either you were rich or you were poor. |
0.35.55 - 0.36.45
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Story of Man with nothing worth stealing Remembers old man second-next-door-neighbour and there was someone prowling around his house. He had nothing worth stealing only a transistor radio which everyone had so there was no one to sell it to. This neighbour shouted out “come on in if you want something. I have nothing and you’re welcome to half of that!” |
0.36.45 - 0.38.50 |
The Marsh today: Families vs Students Joe’s son Michael would still love to raise his children in the Marsh area, even with the volume of traffic. Joe thinks the Grattan Street area cannot take anymore offices or traffic. He says that the HSE have many of the buildings. Joe is lucky as he owns his own house. Married a Coal Quay girl Breda Dineen. There are plans to build student accommodation with 350 rooms on Grattan Street where the Munster Furniture and Hardware was. Joe says he will sell up and leave the parish if that is built. It will break his heart to do it but he can’t put up with any more. Talks about Edel House being discussed on the radio. And thinks there were a lot of “undesirables” in there. In recent times they were warned to behave themselves on the streets and Joe thinks that they do. He thinks that as well as genuine cases there are people looking for houses. Joe would like the HSE to take some buildings further out in areas like Montenotte, Model Farm Road and the Lee Road. He thinks that people who work for the HSE live in these places so won’t choose them for buildings to provide services. As a result buildings and services are put in the city centre. |
0.38.50 - 0.40.25
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Shawlies and booming trade on Coal Quay South Main Street, Castle Street, North Main Street when he was a child was booming. Joe’s grandmother was a shawlie. Joe’s wife re-enacts the shawlies. Joe remembers vermin everywhere on Coal Quay especially on Monday morning. Near where Bodega is now where Clayton Love’s used to be, the Loft Carpet is there now shawlies could trade in there too. You could trade indoors but you paid more to be out of the rain than trading outside. Joe’s grandmother traded under the clock and only sold fish- mackerel and apples. You’d be surprised how many ‘lords and ladies’ would buy their fruit and veg in the Coal Quay because it was fresh with mud still on the cabbage brought in by farmers on horse and cart. |
0.40.25- 0.41.15
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Ryan’s Pub on North Main Street and sleeping Farmers Mary Ryans bar many people went in there in the mornings for a ‘pick me up’ to keep warm. Farmers would abandon the horse and cart to go in there. Most horses would know their way home even if the farmer had too many “nips of Powers”. The farmer would fall asleep in the back of the cart and wake up in Blarney or Ovens. Joe would jump on the back of the cart without the farmer knowing and go out the Carrigrohane Straights which was the countryside then. Then they might swim in the Lee Fields sometimes in their clothes. ‘We were young, foolish but happy’. |
0.41.15 - 0.42.05 |
Food, Shoes and the Pawn Weren’t getting T-bone steaks at home. But they had potatoes, vegetables and homemade skull (bread). Was never hungry. Mother would get remnants of lino from the Munster Furniture and Hardware and cut them for insoles for their shoes. They had good shoes for going to mass which you had to take off straight away at home to be sent to Jones’s Pawn on the end of Shandon Street. |
0.42.05- 0.43.30
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School Violence and good teacher Hated St Joseph’s School because always got kicked in the ankle or had his toe stepped on or a clatter on the back of the ear for not being able to spell. Left there and went to St Francis School and the entrance was from North Main Street by Bradley’s Supermarket or by Broad Lane beyond the dispensary. Learned more in last two years in St Francis from lay teachers than he did from St Joseph. Teachers may have scolded them but never hit them. “Anything you don’t understand ask me” the teacher told them. Joe was watching the clock for when to leave, and watching the tides to know when the tides were bringing back the fish. |
0.43.30 - 0.44.50
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Changes in the Marsh for families: safety & shopping Joe’s son would love to live in the Marsh to rear his children. Couldn’t let them run around on the street with the traffic. But they would have Fitzgerald’s Park and close to Mercy Hospital. 5 minutes from 3 different supermarkets. Sometimes hear people singing or shouting coming back from the pub. The neighbours come to watch. Only incident he remembers in 36 years is that a few car mirrors were broken. Grattan Street is off the beaten track despite Washington Street being so close. |
0.44.50 - 0.46.15
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Food or not at School Not given food in St Francis School but given food in St Joseph’s in the morning “to toughen you up for the beating you would get in the afternoon”. Cocoa and creamy buns in the morning. A few years later they cut back to scones which weren’t the same! One time Joe didn’t get cocoa and a bun because his dad had gotten a promotion. And it upset Joe that all his friends got it. At the age of 10 or 11 he was in St Francis “the Rowdy Boys College”. St Peter and Pauls School was before Joe’s time. |
0.46.15 - 0.48.17 |
Food and Cooking Homemade skull or loaf of bread. His mother would make the bread. And nine times out of ten it would turn out right. the Hills were the biggest population of their aunts and cousins. Across the road from them was nanny Hill. Joe would get his dessert there. For school lunch he’d go home and get a sandwich with soup in the winter and diluted raspberry. Cheese sandwich- “poor man’s meat”. Very lucky to get a ham and cheese sandwich. When going back to school he would pause outside his house no 9 Devonshire Street. Across the road was 34 Nanny Hill’s house and she would bring over the heel of homemade skull plastered with blackcurrant jam which he’d eat on the way back to St Joseph’s on the ‘Dyke [Mardyke] only 5 minutes’ walk, but took him 10 or 15 minutes because he didn’t want to be punctual. He would get a punch from a brother for having a ring of jam around his lips. |
0.48.17 - 0.49.40
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School beating by Presentation Brother and boy’s father’s revenge There is a [Presentation] brother who is now married and living in Grange with a son and daughter. Joe would call him names if he ever met him again. A friend of Joe’s spent three nights in the Mercy Hospital after a beating from this brother. He made him take down his trousers until he only had his Y-front underwear on and beat him there with a four-foot bamboo cane. He was lying on his belly in the Mercy. There’s a black fire escape in St Joseph’s which is still there. The father of that boy had the brother hanging over the fire escape. People were screaming. And Joe and others were hoping that he would drop him. |
0.49.40 - 0.51.39
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Relief after school, Priest Friend assisting the Marsh Community Joe’s life began when he left that school because the fear was gone. He was able to concentrate in school then. In St Joseph’s the teacher was only interested in teaching 4 or 5 smart guys and the rest were punch bags. When Joe was 21 he had as good a job as any of his peers. The brothers were sadists he says. Thinks it took 5 years to become a priest and 7 to become a brother. They were young men who had never seen life and mostly put there by their parents. A retired priest, friend of Joe’s, ‘an t-athair Ó Murchú’ who was the priest in St Peter and Paul’s and is now in Belgooley. Joe goes down to him once a week on a Sunday and they bring him a creamy cake. When people were fighting for things in the parish he supported them, even when they weren’t agreeing with the HSE. The car park where Munster Furniture is the HSE were talking about putting a multi-storey car park there 30 years ago which was diverted to Dunnes Stores Car Park. |
0.51.39 - 0.53.03
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The Marsh Community object to multi-storey carpark People in the Marsh chained themselves across Grattan Street to stop trucks coming in to build a multi-storey car park. But they told the Gardaí in advance so they were on their side and they had no trouble. Joe knew the sergeant well and they used advise them the best way to have a peaceful protest and yet stop everything. Joe has many other memories but feels a little bit under pressure because of the recorder. Other things that they did ‘fighting for their rights’ because they could see offices and buildings going up that they opposed. |
0.53.03 - 0.58.30
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Problems with multi-storey car park and Student Accommodation in the Marsh Was in a meeting with the Council and Paul Moynihan from City Hall explained what was happening. The council own so much of the car park and building to right of Munster Furniture and Hardware. So if the council don’t sell these to the new developers there won’t be enough room for the student accommodation. Joe doesn’t have anything against students but object to their parties which have aged some local residents. Thinks in the past students didn’t behave how they do now. Joe & his wife decided they’d leave if the student accommodation is built, they don’t mind whether they go to the northside or to the southside, but somewhere on a bus route or somewhere near the city. Joe says he’s getting emotional because he always swore that he would die in the Marsh. Joe would like to see a small 5 or 6 storey hotel being built instead and there’s space for coaches. Or family housing being built. They named out other places where student accommodation could be built eg. The Good Shepherd building across from the Lee Fields and Joe was told the students would have so far to walk because they would be high-end students. Joe says the students behave like riff-raff when they are drunk. He was told the accommodation would have security. Joe knows one of the security men for the student accommodation on Lancaster Quay and they are behaved inside the complex but outside there is no control. Joe fears that students will be drinking in doorways in the Marsh or outside on tables which are being built for them to study on. Joe said that if they are 320 high-end students they will have cars and nowhere to park them, and they will have more money for alcohol. So Joe said the riff-raff students would be better! Joe can’t believe a walk from St Anne’s to UCC is too far. |
0.58.30 - 1.04.41
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Sicknesses past and changes now People died from diseases which no one knew what caused them. Some diseases that were killing people have simple cures now. Joe is more concerned about sicknesses today including insects like ticks and leeches. They would go to the dispensary for medication and prescription. If anything was too serious they would send you to the A&E but first get you to sign a form saying you had visited him so that he could get paid. Lots of measles. Chickenpox. Mumps used to be a killer disease especially for men as it could make you impotent. If you went to get medication from the Dispensary you had to bring your own empty bottle. Completely different attitude from doctors now. Might have been given tablets even if there was nothing wrong with you. People who were sent to St Anne’s because of a drinking/ alcohol problem for a few weeks but never came out. Joe didn’t get a clip in the ear growing up but he did do it for his children. Joe used to drink and just wanted to sleep after it. He thinks that women today wouldn’t take the abuse that women used to put up with. One man who went to St Anne’s was signed out by his niece years later and he was afraid of the double-decker bus and went back in of his free will to St Anne’s. |
1.04.41 - 1.06.53
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Issues with HSE Services in the city Centre Joe hopes HSE look elsewhere for offices rather than in the city centre. Methodone clinics around Cork Joe was told need to be in the city because they won’t travel for it which means it needs to be near Grattan Street. There’s a Community Garda. But Joe and his wife have not seen a Garda on the beat for three weeks. |
1.06.53 - 1.09.04
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Work of the Middle Parish Community Centre Joe and others including George [Patterson] do their best to keep the Middle Parish Community Centre going. Narcotics anonymous rent out a room upstairs. Alcoholics Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous. There’s been no vandalism. Joe saw a man he knew going to Narcotics Anonymous outside La Verna near St Francis Church and he shook his hand because he was proud of him for trying to give up. |
1.09.04 - 1.26.27
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Experiences as an alcoholic and trying to give up Joe describes himself as a “dry alcoholic”. Joe hasn’t drunk for six years. He didn’t realise he had a drink problem because he was never aggressive or barred from anywhere. It took Joe years to realise he was unable to home after work without first going to the pub. And that he was having a few pints in a number of bars and that this was adding up to ten pints a night. He decided eventually that he would stop. If someone had told him that he had a drink problem he would have been “highly insulted” and thought he could stop drinking any time he wanted. He went to a few AA meetings and they didn’t suit him. He used to smoke 55/60 cigarettes a day while driving articulated trucks long distance for 35 years all over Ireland. He gave up cigarettes and thought it would be easier to give up alcohol. Ten years ago he gave up alcohol for 2 years. Alcoholics’ Anonymous saying is ‘one day at a time’. He was down in Inchydoney Hotel with his family and dogs. He was tired after lots of driving to Dublin, Wicklow and delivering salt to Killybegs. He kept track of his progress being off alcohol and appreciated the support of his wife. He went into the hotel and had some coke. The Munster Final was on. While waiting at a busy bar for more Coke he saw two men he knew drinking stout. And he ordered a pint of Murphys stout after he saw them. He made ten attempts to leave the pint there, but it overpowered him. He had a devil on one shoulder and a guardian angel on the other. He usually drank a pint in four sups. He went close to the toilet for his first sup in case he was sick from not being used to drinking after two years. He ordered a half-pint of Murphys. He felt fairly content because he felt he could handle the alcohol now. He had two pints of Beamish in Forde’s with a friend of his on a Friday. And slowly he was having more pints and on Wednesdays as well as Fridays until “the drink had a hold of me again”. He knew he couldn’t handle whiskey. Collapsed three times due to liver poisoning. He had to come home from Turkey when he collapsed, his doctor said they saved his life. He wasn’t allowed to eat or drink for 4 days. His GP was waiting for him at midnight when he arrived home in Cork and brought him to the Mercy. He told Joe he was lucky because his liver function was only at 52% working. It took 17 hours for his liver to get to 53% working. After a few weeks he started drinking again. He collapsed at home one morning unconscious for 20 seconds. GP took tests. Went to the Regional Hospital and put in intensive care. Dr Seamus O’Mahony was his liver specialist out there. Seamus told him not to waste his time if he was going to keep drinking and not to come to him without his wife because she would tell the truth about his drinking. Doctor asked him how many units he drank and Joe asked to speak in pints not units. Joe said 20 pints. The doctor said that’s a lot to have in a week. And Joe’s wife said that’s on a Saturday! Two drinking sessions on a Saturday. He was getting liver function tests on a regular basis and his liver was getting stronger. Joe used to give up alcohol two days before going to the doctor but didn’t realise that alcohol makes triglycerides in the body which take days to be broken down. Joe used drink cans of beer at home when his wife was away. He would vomit it up after two ‘slugs’ or gulps. And then he would try to drink it again. He said that you have to admit it to yourself that you have a problem. He realised that if he didn’t stop he wouldn’t see his five grand-children grow up. He has never been happier than he is now sober. His children can ring him at any time for a lift. And his children can depend on him. Joe still takes one day at a time. Joe knew a guy who was 33 years sober and he went to London and started drinking and was knocked down by a bus. |
1.26.27 - 1.28.44
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Family living in the Dispensary building Grattan Street Barrett family who lived in the Dispensary had children who are still alive living in southside who would be older than him. “they were all genuine down to earth people”. To the left of where the marriage registrar is now is where they lived. On the right hand side was an old lady sitting in a box like a phone box cut in half. And she would take people’s details as they entered. The double doors to the clinic were closed. The Barrett sons went to St Joseph’s School as well. Joe jokes about a previous interview I had with a friend of his Liam O hUiginn, and jokingly says he’s a very old man. Joe also apologises again for not being used to “speaking in public” pointing at the digital recorder. |
1.28.44 - 1.28.55
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Outro. Interview ends. |
Recalls her first holy communion where one girl arrived late and had to experience the ceremony on her own.
Speaks of some childhood games and playing and picnicking by the sea.
Enjoyed school at Loreto Convent Balbriggan even though the nuns were strict. English was her favourite subject.
Talks about her desire to become a nurse and her experiences in Dublin hospitals. Describes the strict discipline and hierarchy in hospitals including the way superiors exercised power over how nurses were required to dress and commented on their physical appearance with impunity. Jane outlines the negative impacts of this culture including fear of making a mistake and the incentive to cover up of mistakes. Outlines a rare challenge to authority when nurses boycotted a graduation ceremony. Mentions the role of religion in hospitals.
Outlines her time spend nursing in USA, a romantic relationship and her emigrant experience there before returning to Ireland to pursue Public Health Nursing (PHN), which she prefers as it feels she is making a difference.
Discusses moving to Cork and her early positive impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre and its staff. Speaks about the Grattan Street building itself, including its sense of history, graffiti on its outside walls, and its convenient location in the city centre and proximity to other services. Describes the problems with car parking and the resulting tensions with neighbours.
Jane speaks of her PHN work in Blackpool and a court case involving a child and social worker. Outlines the characteristic of a good PHN, and how much of the role is learned through experience. Regrets the turn her career has taken towards management and away from dealing with patients.
Discusses the 1999 nursing strike which lead to a new role for an immunisation specialist which she was hired for. Describes how colleagues insisted on referring to her by her previous title, refusing to acknowledge her promotion and equal status. Describes her role including overseeing Swine Flu vaccinations.
Explains the vaccine cold storage system, the sense of responsibility for ordering them and overseeing them. Tells stories of when vaccines were relocated during a flood to protect them, and when the electricity was monitored during a storm in case the power was cut to the vaccine fridges. Mentions vaccine policies, myths and technological developments.
Outlines her preferred time to move services from Grattan Street to St Mary’s Primary Healthcare Centre Gurranabraher.
]]>Jane grew up in Balbriggan and Skerries County Dublin. Describes her love of the Georgian house her family lived in and her love of old buildings and antiques before they moved to a smaller home.
Recalls her first holy communion where one girl arrived late and had to experience the ceremony on her own.
Speaks of some childhood games and playing and picnicking by the sea.
Enjoyed school at Loreto Convent Balbriggan even though the nuns were strict. English was her favourite subject.
Talks about her desire to become a nurse and her experiences in Dublin hospitals. Describes the strict discipline and hierarchy in hospitals including the way superiors exercised power over how nurses were required to dress and commented on their physical appearance with impunity. Jane outlines the negative impacts of this culture including fear of making a mistake and the incentive to cover up of mistakes. Outlines a rare challenge to authority when nurses boycotted a graduation ceremony. Mentions the role of religion in hospitals.
Outlines her time spend nursing in USA, a romantic relationship and her emigrant experience there before returning to Ireland to pursue Public Health Nursing (PHN), which she prefers as it feels she is making a difference.
Discusses moving to Cork and her early positive impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre and its staff. Speaks about the Grattan Street building itself, including its sense of history, graffiti on its outside walls, and its convenient location in the city centre and proximity to other services. Describes the problems with car parking and the resulting tensions with neighbours.
Jane speaks of her PHN work in Blackpool and a court case involving a child and social worker. Outlines the characteristic of a good PHN, and how much of the role is learned through experience. Regrets the turn her career has taken towards management and away from dealing with patients.
Discusses the 1999 nursing strike which lead to a new role for an immunisation specialist which she was hired for. Describes how colleagues insisted on referring to her by her previous title, refusing to acknowledge her promotion and equal status. Describes her role including overseeing Swine Flu vaccinations.
Explains the vaccine cold storage system, the sense of responsibility for ordering them and overseeing them. Tells stories of when vaccines were relocated during a flood to protect them, and when the electricity was monitored during a storm in case the power was cut to the vaccine fridges. Mentions vaccine policies, myths and technological developments.
Outlines her preferred time to move services from Grattan Street to St Mary’s Primary Healthcare Centre Gurranabraher.
0.00.00 - 0.00.28 |
intro |
0.00.28 - 0.02.41 |
Growing Up in County Dublin Grew up in Balbriggan County Dublin, seaside town between Dublin and Drogheda. When growing up she was allowed to Drogheda to shop by herself but not to Dublin because Drogheda was considered a safer town. [Jane mentions that Drogheda is not considered safe at present this is an allusion to drug gang related violence in Drogheda which was in the news around the time of the interview.] Also mentions Skerries as a seaside town in County Dublin. Went to school in Loreto Convent in Balbriggan at 4 and finished when 17 and refused the nuns’ offer to stay another year. Stayed in the same school for primary and secondary school, the benefit of which is having the same people with you. Had a school reunion about a year previously. Some of her classmates she didn’t recognise, but some of their names she also didn’t recognise. Says she loves Balbriggan. |
0.02.41 - 0.04.28 |
Moving House as Child Balbriggan and Skerries were just 4 miles apart, moved to Skerries when a teenager but considers herself to be from Balbriggan. Rivalry between the two towns and Skerries is considered to be nicer. Balbriggan was more “Wavin pipes”, more industry, Skerries was more for tourists. There was a holiday camp called Red Island that people in Dublin used to go to in Skerries. It was like the holiday camp in Dirty Dancing. [3:27-3:33 Aoife O’Brien who had been interviewed for the Grattan Street Project previously walks into the room at this point.] Skerries would have considered itself snobby as it has a rugby and sailing club. Even though she moved to Skerries she still went to school in Ballbriggan which was “not the done thing”. Her brothers went to school in Skerries and are married and live in Skerries. Bracken Court Hotel in Balbriggan which has been there forever and she remembers going there for her Holy Communion breakfast. |
0.04.28 - 0.07.13 |
Holy Communion Day It was a small group making their holy communion in the convent church rather than the town church. It was special in the sense that there were few children making their communion. Kathleen Gavin was given the wrong time for the communion and turned up an hour late and “the nuns ate her” and the nuns wouldn’t admit that they gave her the wrong time and she had to bring it in the next day to prove it to them. Kathleen still tells that story and is traumatised by it. She had to make her first holy communion by herself. It was a lovely sunny day and they all stood on the steps of the convent for a photograph. Confirmation was made in town. Now people will have a meal out after a communion or confirmation but in Jane’s time that was not always the case. But her aunt who lived next door brought her to the Grand Hotel (now the Bracken Court Hotel Balbriggan) for a lunch/brunch after the ceremony. And this was “a huge deal” because it was not a common occurrence at the time. For confirmation there were a few schools being confirmed at once. And there was a line of boys and a line of girls being confirmed at the same time in the church. All the girls wanted to be kneeling beside John Conway a boy who everyone fancied. |
0.07.13 - 0.10.15 |
Games when growing up She wasn’t big into sport. Lived in a big old haunted house which her grandmother left to her mother. It was near the sea. As children they were allowed onto the rocks by themselves. She played basketball in school but was not very good at it. Didn’t like that kind of confrontation. Played by the sea, it wasn’t a beach but rocks. Picnics and playing. Her dad built a ship in the garden, with a deck and sails. She was a big fan of Enid Blyton books as a child, especially the Secret Seven and the ‘Famous Five’ books. Her dad build them a Secret Seven type hut in the garden. As children they “went on mysteries”. They followed one man in imitation of the Enid Blyton books and decided that he was a smuggler. And they followed him up to a Martello Tower where he happened to be going to urinate. They had more freedom then, allowed to leave in the morning and return in the evening. That was the norm and there wasn’t the supervision that is present today. |
0.10.15 - 0.16.01 |
Old Family House Fancourt: big Georgian house. She hated leaving the house as a child. It was very expensive to keep the house and there were also rates to pay. In addition there were fees to pay for the convent school and there was five children going to school. So they moved to a smaller house in Skerries. Fancourt: Three storey, basement and land attached to it but there was more but it was sold to try to keep the house. Discusses the house and its jointly owned green area with the neighbouring houses. Haunted house: where priests were staying which was her sister’s bedroom- she saw a ghost of a monk. Other stories of ghosts including knocking on doors and foxhunters. Regrets the old furniture was sold, including servants bells. Jane is interested in auctions. |
0.16.01- 0.17.08 |
House in Skerries Small, terrace house. Skerries nice place to live by sea. Brother lived in Brambles estate and bought new house on the skerries terrace. |
0.17.08 - 0.23.13 |
Secondary School Loved school. Regrets being too good and not being bold. Wore green uniform. No street lights and was too far from town to meet friends after school at Loreto Convent. Loved the nuns though they were tough. Grateful to her parents for her education. Loved her friends, the school and its old building. Felt safe. Describes herself as average student not into sports. Few jobs for women when they finished school. English was her favourite subject. Would love to be librarian. Prefers physical books to E-books/Kindle. Pressure on students today at exam time. Criticises the Leaving Certificate points system where students opt for high points courses rather than one they are interested in. Importance of working at something you like: “Hard work won’t kill you but work you hate will” |
0.23.13- 0.26.36 |
Nursing Training & Hunger Strike Incident Jane’s mother had been a nurse. When she finished school there was a shortage of nurses. The applied directly to hospitals for nursing. But hospitals wanted trained staff rather than students. Trained in Jervis Street Hospital where the shopping centre is in Dublin now was a general hospital. Saying about nurses and Dublin hospitals: “Vincent’s snobs, Mater ladies and Jervis Nurses” Recalls riots due to Hunger Strikes. A man pulled a gun on her on O’Connell Street. Night duty on ward on her own, 20-25 beds. 24 rioters and 1 Garda were in the same ward. |
0.26.36 - 0.31.48 |
Wanting to be a Nurse & Early Nursing Experience Played hospital as a child. Always wanted to work in nursing. Has enjoyed much of it. Would not advise anyone to do nursing. Recalls seeing a confused naked man on her first day. Worried crying about giving the wrong medication to patient. Nurse students were also staff. Loved Irish nurses in America when she was their because their training was very practical. Enjoyed her time in St Mary’s Hospital New Jersey USA. Film “FX Murder by Illusion” features the hospital she worked in. |
0.31.48 - 0.34.50 |
Hospital in USA and Differences in Immigrants’ Intention AIDS was a big issue in the hospital in USA Observes that most immigrant groups in USA wanted to stay there but Irish people wanted to return to Ireland. Impact of Irish on the world St Patrick’s Day Parade. Thinks Irish people are patriotic abroad and keen to return home. |
0.34.50 - 0.37.43 |
Discipline in Hospital Difficult senior nurses. The sense of hierarchy. Demeaning and mocking way junior nurses were spoken to was accepted. Jane was referred to as an “anencephalic”, a baby born without part of its head which will soon die. When you knelt down your uniform had to touch the ground. Ward sister demanded to see under Jane’s uniform to see she was wearing a slip under her uniform. Nurses were allowed to wear a cardigan at night but had to take it off in the morning. A nurse went to Saudi Arabia where she was murdered. Thinks they were strict about stupid things. Discipline was important. No one thought to question it. |
0.37.43 - 0.40.58 |
Story of nurses boycotting nursing event Did midwifery in Rotunda. The Scottish matron didn’t hire any of the students but hired Scottish nurses. Jane & fellow midwifery students boycotted the graduation event in protest at this. Matron spoke to them individually. A brave nurse refused to answer any questions unless her union representative. Jane’s class is the only one not to have a group photo because of the boycott. People didn’t defy superiors at the time. |
0.40.58 - 0.42.32 |
Effect of the Strict Discipline Some staff were panicky and nervous about making a mistake. May have incentivised people to cover up mistakes to avoid the repercussions instead of working something out. Matron could make personal remarks about nurses without repercussions: telling a nurse to fix her crooked teeth. |
0.42.32 - 0.44.22 |
Religion in Hospitals No MRSA in those days. Nuns ran a very clean and efficient hospital. Jervis was a Catholic hospital. Rotunda was a Protestant hospital, most of the staff were Catholic and they went to mass, then the Protestants went to service and were given tea and biscuits. |
0.44.22 - 0.50.00 |
Working as a Nurse in USA: differences to Irish system Had to sit an exam before working as a nurse in USA. VISA dependant on passing the exam. Irish nurses were not used to multiple choice exams at the time. They were also required to sit an English language examination to work as a nurse in the USA. Rented houses were arranged for the nurses. Jane had a car and dated a man in Washington at the time. An exciting time. Maximum was 2 patients to a room in USA vs larger wards in Ireland. In USA their reports were taken on a tape recorder rather than written. Patient’s doctor would still be their doctor once they went to hospital. DRG Diagnostic Related Grouping which was related to how many days insurance would be paid per patient per illness. Good life and money in USA which allowed Jane to do the Public Health course in UCD. |
0.50.00 - 0.56.20 |
Public Health Nursing Desire to come home. Discusses her relationship with a reporter/journalist in USA which ended when she returned to Ireland. Began work in Ballyfermot - highlight in public health career. Started a needle exchange for drug addiction. Dynamic and progressive area. Rough area but felt you were making a difference. Didn’t feel the same way when she moved to Cork. Public Health vs Hospital: In hospital you pass the patient to the next shift, but in Public Health you are responsible for all of your cases. Once her camera was stolen from her car when visiting a patient. |
0.56.20 - 1.00.49 |
Coming to Cork Came to Cork because husband was working there. Had to do an Irish oral exam to get the Public Health job in Cork. November 1992 got job in Grattan Street Health Centre. Got married January 1993. Staff had a lunch and cake in before her wedding, and a present even though she was only there for a month. Admires architecture of Queens University Belfast, where she could have gone to work in the 1980s. Remarks on the small decisions than influence one’s life and career. |
1.00.49 - 1.06.59 |
Impressions of Grattan Street Health Centre Work as Public Health Nurse Parking problems in Grattan Street. Met director in base Abbey Court House. “The one thing you learn in Grattan Street is how to park!” There was more space before the school [Educate Together] Grattan Street was a welcoming place. Public Health Nurse in Blackpool flats now demolished. There was a brothel in one. Fantastic people. Once left handbag behind in Blackpool. Mixed work in Ballyfermot but all child welfare in Cork- visiting houses. Discusses one case of child with broken leg where mother hadn’t done anything about it. So a social worker and Garda were needed to get the child to hospital. Jane had to go to court. The child was returned to the mother. Jane then had to still work with that mother subsequently. |
1.06.59 - 1.09.02 |
Impression of Danger in Some Areas Worked with St Vincent de Paul in Knocknaheeny. Never felt threatened. Privileged to get into flats that people would let no one else into. If she saw suspected stolen goods she and they knew that she was not interested in anything other than child welfare. |
1.09.02 - 1.11.35 |
Story of very Difficult Patient Hospitals can discharge patients but as PHN the patient can live in your area for decades. Nurses shared a rota to look after this man because the heavy workload. Digression to story about writing wrong date in calligraphy on a colleague’s wedding album. |
1.11.35 - 1.15.30 |
What makes a Good Public Health Nurse Get on with people. Make people relaxed. People need to trust you. Have to be honest. Not trying to be someone’s friend. Assessment of patient is important. Patients can become dependent on a particular PHN. Privilege to enter other people’s homes, especially when they won’t let other people into their homes eg social workers or Gardaí |
1.15.30 - 1.19.30 |
Training and Meaning from Job Training didn’t prepare her for PHN. Compares it to jumping off a chair to train for parachute jump. End of career now. Disappointed at choices she made. She is now doing more management and less hands-on. Recalls times she felt she made a difference: making a joke with a terminal patient, assisting a family who had brought their father home to die to care for him when they were overwhelmed. Doesn’t feel like she is making a difference any more. |
1.19.30 - 1.21.20 |
Regrets the Management side of the Job As she was promoted she was had to do more management which she regrets. Is considering retiring or changing career. Would love to be a librarian or work with antiques or books. Discounts it as silly at this stage of her life. Is unhappy with her current work. Her staff say she makes a difference but she is not sure. She took a career break and her staff missed her. Feels too far away from where she started. |
1.21.20 - 1.26.40 |
Promotion to Vaccine and Management Role 1999 nursing strike. Jane was on strike committee. Picketed Abbey Court House on Sulllivan’s Quay. Meeting with management to decide whether the strikers could use the toilets and canteen. Outcome of the strike was that new job for a specialist in immunisation, vaccine. Jane was stabbed by a syringe by accident one day. Overnight Jane became Assistant Director, and colleagues at same grade insisted on calling her Senior Public Health Nurse which was the previous title. Recalls an Assistant Director who was victimised in a more severe way to Jane which went to mediation. It went away but it was nasty at the time Jane says. Jane was never invited to the Assistant Director Christmas lunch for years |
1.26.40 - 1.29.26 |
Change from Clinical to Managerial Role Her role was a clinical role with no staff, vaccines following up on defaulters. Croke Park and Haddington Road agreements changed her role. Swine Flu vaccinating 1000 people a day in Neptune Stadium. School public health nurses were backbone of system. And the management system was at cross purposes. These nurses eventually came under her remit. Realised that she didn’t like management- doesn’t like taking responsibility for the mistake of others. Describes her management style as “Do it, do it, do it!” and she shouldn’t have to give a reason. |
1.29.26 - 1.33.20 |
Building in Grattan Street compared to Gurranabraher Loves the building. Old Quaker Meeting House. Graffiti of penis and scrotum that her elderly aunt was trying to figure out. Would have preferred to stay in Grattan Street. Recalls the old ventilation holes where pigeon droppings would land on your desk. Location of Grattan Street is good for the public and services. Grattan Street building requires work to maintain it. Unsure if it’s a positive move for services to Gurranabraher. Useful to be near Edel House [women’s shelter] and the Share Houses. She has 7 staff but the new office is for 4 people which she thinks is insulting. Doesn’t believe hot desking works. They are on a “room allocation review list” |
1.33.20 - 1.35.09 |
Benefits of Grattan Street Health Centre Close to town- shops and the bank. Part of the community in Grattan Street. Close to Mercy Hospital. Building has a good feel. Felt at home there. Lots of history. The only thing people don’t miss in Grattan Street is the parking. Everyone went to the Grattan Street Christmas party. |
1.35.09 - 1.40.06 |
Relationship with community in Grattan Street Animosity is with neighbours regarding parking. Story about getting kitchen done by a man from Grattan Street and being concerned about parking. School next door- issue with parking- children don’t live in the area. Tricky relationship with the school. Story of previous principal of the school trying to get clampers to clamp all the cars belonging Grattan Street staff. Other stories about the difficulties caused by parking and the uneasy relationship with the school. |
1.40.06 - 1.40.55 |
Other Stories Mentions that there are stories about affairs in Grattan Street but doesn’t want to tell them. Says Grattan Street was a good place to work. |
1.40.55 - 1.44.55 |
Vaccine Storage Fridges Temperature Control Vaccines have to be kept in fridges between 2 degrees and 8 degrees. The Cold Chain- ensures that the vaccines are at the right temperature including when transported. Vaccines have to be monitored and recorded twice a day. Some people think Jane is over the top with her care of vaccines. She doesn’t think so. Vaccines are very expensive and important when going to school. Found it hard being responsible for the vaccines even when not at work. Story that she called about the vaccines from a Gondola in Venice is not true! Hundreds and thousands of euro worth of vaccines at a time when Order through United Drug. She sees the price every time that she orders which is stressful to see the cost. |
1.44.55 - 1.44.55 |
Difficulties Moving Vaccines to Gurranbraher Dreaded moving the vaccine in Grattan Street because there’s no lift. Complications of moving vaccine fridges and the required procedure. |
1.44.55 - 1.44.55 |
Funny story about Monitoring Electricity for Vaccine Fridges during Storm Electricity was to be cut off due to replacing telegraph poles. Needed generator to keep electricity on for the vaccine fridges. Jane had asked many times for a back-up generator but never received one. Was asked by superior to protect the vaccine fridges from a storm, which had never been asked before. Generator set up in Grattan Street yard. Jane inquired how the back-up would be physically changed if the power goes out? The solution was that the toilet light was to be left on and the electricity workers would see driving past if the power failed. |
1.49.55 - 1.51.51 |
Moving Vaccines during Floods Older man told Jane that Grattan Street is in a depression and so there are never any power cuts. One problem during big floods in Grattan Street when wall near Mercy broke. Jane was doing vaccines for Swine Flu in Neptune at the time. With steps up to Grattan Street Health Centre and vaccines on top floor Jane thought they were safe. She was informed an amphibious craft was to come to move the vaccines. A Ford Fiesta arrived. They were put in St. Finbarr’s Hospital for the night. |
1.51.51 - 1.54.25 |
Future of Vaccines Takes the vaccine care very seriously so that it’s both safe and effective. In third world vaccine storage is more complicated. Tyndall Institute is developing a patch that will deliver vaccines rather than needles. Makes comparison to Star Trek. |
1.54.25 - 2.01.07 |
Vaccine Take Up and vaccination policies Is very pro-vaccine Mentions problem with social media spreading misinformation about vaccines. And the damage that can cause. Doesn’t argue with vaccines with friends and family. Following up with child who had only received some of the required vaccine, the mother brought the child to an area with a measles epidemic. Thinks more education is needed and PHNs need to be very positive about vaccines. Thinks the HPV vaccine is a no-brainer. Need to dispel vaccine myths. Approximately 1500 euro to vaccinate a child fully. Wonders whether the fact the vaccination schemes are free of charge makes some people take it for granted and not value it. Some countries have a no vaccination no school policy. Minister for Health at the time Simon Harris had been discussing a similar policy in Ireland. In some countries there are penalties for not getting vaccinations eg withdrawal of Child Benefit. In Ireland the decision is left to the individual. Some parents think that because all other children are vaccinated that their child will be safe. Story of an unvaccinated child whose mother with only let the child play with vaccinated children! “Every vaccine is a little victory” |
2.01.07 - 2.01.54 |
Opportunity for Interviewee to say anything not yet mentioned Describes the interview as better than a counselling session. Reiterates that she has gone far away from where she started out in her career and it may be time to step back. |
2.01.54 - 2.05.57 |
Hopes for Future of Grattan Street Doesn’t believe Grattan Street can be sold. There was lots of pressure on them to move, which Jane felt was unnecessary. Jane’s preference was to move in the summer when the schools are closed because there would be no need to do vaccinations, but they were forced to move during term time. Is not sure what services are remaining in Grattan Street. Mentions a piece of furniture that she would love to have from Grattan Street. Hopes the future of Grattan Street will benefit the community. Discussion about Grattan Street being opened for heritage week or an open day but it never happened. |
2.05.57 - 2.06.10 |
Outro. Interview Ends. |
Describes her grandmother who ran a shop on Churchfield Green. Her grandmother was a confidante to many locals. Her grandmother eventually moved into their family home, where Aoife describes how she cooked tripe and drisheen. Aoife also speaks about a typical Christmas day with her family and neighbours visiting.
Recalls her school days and subsequent courses and jobs before her clerical officer role in Grattan Street, taking over her sister’s role.
Remembers her first experiences of Grattan Street as a child patient wanting to get glasses. Is reluctant to leave Grattan Street as she has so many memories there.
Explains her work in administration for the schools vaccination programme. Mentions rare cases of vaccine hesitancy or refusal.
Describes the quirky character of the Grattan Street Medical Centre building and as a happy place to work despite its defects. It’s location in the centre of the city is also beneficial.
Aoife talks about her role organising social events for the medical centre staff- Christmas parties and leaving parties. Hope to maintain these traditions when the staff move to St Mary’s Health Campus Gurranabraher.
Recalls stories from Grattan Street including wasps, pigeons, floods, characters and the boiler.
]]>Aoife describes growing up on the Northside near Cathedral Road and playing games with her friends.
Describes her grandmother who ran a shop on Churchfield Green. Her grandmother was a confidante to many locals. Her grandmother eventually moved into their family home, where Aoife describes how she cooked tripe and drisheen. Aoife also speaks about a typical Christmas day with her family and neighbours visiting.
Recalls her school days and subsequent courses and jobs before her clerical officer role in Grattan Street, taking over her sister’s role.
Remembers her first experiences of Grattan Street as a child patient wanting to get glasses. Is reluctant to leave Grattan Street as she has so many memories there.
Explains her work in administration for the schools vaccination programme. Mentions rare cases of vaccine hesitancy or refusal.
Describes the quirky character of the Grattan Street Medical Centre building and as a happy place to work despite its defects. It’s location in the centre of the city is also beneficial.
Aoife talks about her role organising social events for the medical centre staff- Christmas parties and leaving parties. Hope to maintain these traditions when the staff move to St Mary’s Health Campus Gurranabraher.
Recalls stories from Grattan Street including wasps, pigeons, floods, characters and the boiler.
0.00.00 - 0.00.52
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Role in Grattan Street Medical Centre Clerical Officer in Grattan Street Medical Centre for 18/19 years. From Cathedral Road originally. Only Northsider working in Grattan Street Medical Centre! |
0.00.52 - 0.02.44
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Background, Childhood and Games Grew up in cul-de-sac terrace called School Avenue. Primary school: St Vincent’s. Games: “piggy”, skipping ropes. Convinced her friends that there were fairies in trees by her house. Took over older sister Sinead’s job in Grattan Street Medical Centre. They played together with Sinead as the teacher and Aoife as the student in their grandmother’s room using chalk which got on grandmother’s clothes and she never knew when it came from. Started school with boys & girls she was friends with and still friends with many of them today. |
0.02.44 - 0.03.37
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Childhood Games: Piggy Describes the game how it’s made and its rules (also known as hopscotch or pickey) chalk on the road and use a shoe polish tin. Very popular where Aoife was from. |
0.03.37 - 0.05.06 |
Grand Mother’s shop on Churchfield Green. Grandmother’s surname was Stephens and people who know Aoife from the shop know her as Aoife Stephens. Had friends up near the shop. Shop closed 20 years ago. Her dad drove her and siblings from school to the shop after school. Her mom worked up there. Aoife and her friend Paula went to the “Pound Shop” or collected old wool from people’s houses to make ponytails in imitation of Like “Rainbow Brite Dolls”. |
0.05.06 - 0.07.37
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Grandmother’s Shop- description, shopping notes, fun Shop was hub of activity. Customers sent up notes with the items they wanted. Children played hiding in fridges. “Light-fingered”- as children they took things from the shop. It was a grocery shop selling: milk, bread, cold meats, sweets, cigarettes. Recalls a funny incident when her cousin Leonard got a note which had “S. Towels” meaning sanitary towels but he asked his dad “what are stowels?” |
0.07.37 - 0.13.23
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Grandmother: Description, her Funeral, Summer Holidays with her, Christmas Day, Caring for others, Cooking Tripe and Drisheen Aoife thought her grandmother wasn’t patient because she had a quick tongue. Now looking back she thinks she was very patient. Aoife’s sister went to live with their grandmother when granddad died. Used to stay in caravans down in Youghal. Eventually they rented a house from a woman called Maureen. About 13 children stayed there in Youghal with grandmother for the summer. Grandmother doted on all of them. At her funeral people had very fond memories of her. She was an agony aunt and confidante. A neighbour could chat in the shop for 3 hours with her. Family always went to grandmother’s house for Christmas Day. When grandmother sold the house she came to live with Aoife’s family and the rest of the family came to them for Christmas. She cooked tripe and drisheen for Aoife’s dad who worked nights in Irish Steel. Grandmother loved feeding people. Steak and gravy could be cooked in the morning so Aoife’s mom only had to heat it up. “The smell alone would turn me off” the tripe and drisheen. “Fairly gruesome now to be honest”. “she knew by my face not to even ask” if Aoife wanted to taste any. |
0.13.23 - 0.14.55
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Christmas Day Start 10am. Aoife’s parents & her 3 sisters. Uncle Jim now deceased. Aunt Geraldine. Grandmother had 2 girls and 2 boys. Neighbours would call in. Everyone in a small kitchen. It was the hub of the family. Fighting over toys and batteries. |
0.14.55 - 0.16.53
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School Enjoyed it. As admin for the vaccinations department in Grattan Street Medical Centre she has goes back to St Vincent’s twice a year for vaccines: HPV (human papillomavirus), Men C (meningitis C) and Tdap (tetanus and low dose diphtheria and low dose pertussis (whooping cough) booster). School still looks and smells the same. Saw her picture on the wall sitting next to two girls who she is still best friends with now. Liked the subjects Art, French and Business Organisation (“Biz Org”). |
0.16.53 - 0.20.11
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After School: Courses and Jobs Did a secretarial course in Terence MacSwiney Community College and a City and Guilds Course. Work experience in solicitor’s office in Washington Street doing dictation and typing but felt a little bit like it was over her head. Worked in Dovertron Electronics in Dublin Hill which had the contract for the Sky Box where she worked for 6 months. Worked in Bourns Electronics: 8 months soldering. Saturday job in a butchers in North Main Street- she hated smell of meat lasted 3 Saturdays! Handed in CV to line manager and staff officers in HSE. Offered job 2 weeks after the interview. Feels like Grattan Street Medical Centre won’t let her go. Feels like part of the furniture. The secretarial skills course she took included: computer skills, typing, floppy disks, word processing, dictation, typing, telephone manner, |
0.20.11 - 0.22.31
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Recalls Grattan Street when visiting her sister before working there Aoife used to call into Grattan Street Medical Centre to visit her sister who worked there. She attended Michael O’Sullivan in the eye clinic when she was in school. She was familiar with the building. It is strange to be working in the building where she had been as a patient. There was a school nurse who she was afraid of and Aoife became her secretary. Smoking: Canteen was halved at the time and smokers were on one side of it. People could smoke in their offices. She stepped into her sister’s job. She felt very welcomed. Aoife says that she doesn’t take direction very well, she prefers to do things her way. Her sister was very particular. |
0.22.31 - 0.25.00
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Memories as a Patient- and pretending to need glasses! Dark room, waiting to be called. As a child she was desperate to get glasses and braces. She used take silver foil from cigarette packets to put around teeth to imitate braces. She wore her grandfather’s glasses which had thick lenses “like jam jars” in the hope that she herself would need to wear glasses. She told Dr (Michael) O’Sullivan that she couldn’t see much of the (eye-test) board. Later on, after a year or two working in Grattan Street Medical Centre, she discovered that she did need glasses. |
0.25.00 - 0.26.23
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Difficult to leave Grattan Street Medical Centre Sister loved Grattan Street Medical Centre and was heartbroken to leave. Aoife has been in her office since March 2001. In facy she has been there longer than she has been in her own home. “My whole life story is been in the walls”. Leaving Grattan Street Medical Centre is tough for her and some of the others working there. |
0.26.23 - 0.32.57
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Description of Role and duties Every child in junior infants is offered a vision check MMR, booster vaccination and senior infant child is offered hearing check. Aoife and Síle (Sheila?) in Grattan Street Medical Centre cover the North Lee area from Macroom to Youghal, not the city, Glounthaune, Carrigtwohill, Cobh, Midleton area. Aoife works from the city to east Cork, there’s a very big workload so she must be organised. It’s a very rewarding job. It requires building a rapport with primary schools and secretaries. As part of her work she needs to: send out forms to 58 primary schools and get packs ready for the schools and all the students and get the forms back by courier. The form have to be sorted based on the vaccination date schedule and people removed from the list if they refuse the vaccine. They also check that children weren’t vaccinated before eg. a “repeat student” (a student repeating a class or year) or maybe the student has lived in another country where they were vaccinated so that must be followed up. They are almost busier in the summer months because the details of every child that has been vaccinated must be inputted into the system. Aoife gets called a lot because she has been in Grattan Street Health Centre for so long that she has many answers to questions, for instance she buys all of the stationery for the building. The computer system has changed in the last few years, it’s now a national system. Previously there was one system for Cork and Kerry but a different one for Galway etc. The new system is more time consuming at present but will be easier in the long run. Cards on the database. Notes written on the cards which are kept as well. |
0.32.57 - 0.36.55
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Vaccinations in Secondary Schools Aoife goes to secondary schools providing administrative support as part of the vaccine programme. Visits a school twice: once for 1st dose of HPV and Men C and then 2nd dose of HPV and the Tdap. Boys aren’t given HPV at present but they will next year (2020) which will make things very busy. Either Aoife brings the forms or the AMO Area Medical Officer will. Sometimes the school secretary sends 4th years (fourth year /transition year students) to help them. Checks that the students have the right consent forms. Ensures that the students get back to class after waiting 15 minutes after the vaccination. First time the students have been at an appointment or vaccination without a parent. A bit of nerves from them. Tdap is Tetannus. Men C for meningitis. HPV the cervical cancer vaccine. Aoife says that nobody wants to get a vaccine but generally it’s fine. |
0.36.55 - 0.40.30
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Rare cases of people refusing vaccines and possible reasons why Not many people refuse the vaccinations. Some consent forms are confusing for people, especially if English is not their first languages. Aoife sees form where people sign to accept and refuse a vaccination so those have to be cleared up. When a child is vaccinated a parent has to be present. People refuse vaccines for personal reasons- don’t agree with them or have never taken them and won’t start now. Aoife mentions the controversy around the MMR but says that she cannot get involved as an admin. If she or a parent is unsure about something there is a doctor on call to answer any questions re vaccines. |
0.40.30 - 0.42.52
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The Building itself in Grattan Street Medical Centre Aoife thinks that the Grattan Street Medical Centre building has character, it is quirky. It is not clinical like you think a medical centre might be. “There’s probably music in the walls of this building”, “It’s a happy building”. The roof leaks, door hinges break, things crack and things break. She has shared the office with the same girl for a few years and they will be separated when they leave. They know when to talk to each other or leave each other alone. Pigeon poo has come down from the ceiling onto people. |
0.42.52 - 0.46.30
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Neighbourhood around Grattan Street Medical Centre So near town. On lunch can go to the bank. Few houses that live around them know them. Car park has been a source of hatred because so many use it and the school as well. No point in falling out with staff or neighbours over cars. A few people “fond of the drink” would come into the building there was never trouble there were always characters about the area. Could find people sleeping rough at the side of the building. Will miss the location. Know the people in the local shops and chemists with whom she’s built up relationships. Goes to the furniture shop on North Main Street, they ask when she’s leaving Grattan Street Medical Centre and she says “don’t mention the war! Just don’t talk about it because I can’t talk about it.” Feels it’s the end of an era and it’s sad. |
0.46.30 - 0.50.41
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Moving to St Mary’s Primary Care Centre Gurranbraher Aoife’s workplace is moving to the old orthopaedic hospital now the St Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. She feels institutionalised being in Grattan Street Medical Centre so long. Aoife has organised social aspect of Grattan Street Medical Centre eg. the Christmas party and lunch parties for people leaving. She even once served lunch after she had made the orders. It’s like a family away from home. There’s about 50 staff but never there at the same time. GPs, mental health, public health nursing, dental will all be up in St Mary’s. Aoife wonders about how they will keep the soul of Grattan Street Medical Centre when they move. Some people are delighted to be moving to a new building. But for Aoife it’s the people that make it. Change is good even though it’s scary. Will ensure they still do nights out, lunches, Christmas events. Wants to keep something about Grattan Street Medical Centre as well. |
0.50.41 - 0.54.30
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Social Aspects of Grattan Street Medical Centre Tradition before Christmas breakup day bring some food to the canteen between 12:30-2:30 big lunch in canteen. A feast- people make the effort. Aoife puts Christmas music on an old CD player. Some people play instruments eg. Violin. Party night at the airport hotel, plays. You can’t please everyone- you’ll never get the date right or the venue right. Takes lots of patience and organisation to do the social events. Recommends that people pay for the meal beforehand and she gives the restaurant the money and then everyone pays for everything extra themselves. |
0.54.30 - 0.56.45
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Organising Social Events and responsibility for money People think when you work for HSE they may think you get subsidised nights out. Mindful that she’s handling other people’s money. Bad snow one Christmas and only 2 members of staff made it to the party in Oriel House Ballincollig. There was no refund and that may have affected the turnout the next years. |
0.56.45 - 0.59.20
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Stories from Grattan Street Wasps coming through the decorative vents in the ceiling one year. Leaks in the roof. Boiler broke down and Aoife spotted smoke on the way to work. Flooding prevented staff from getting to work in Grattan Street. Professor Drumm (Brendan Drumm) head of HSE was visiting and there was new cutlery arrived and lots of scones from Duggan’s cake shop around the corner. Aoife was giving the scones to people as they were leaving even Prof Drumm. |
0.59.20 - 1.04.00
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Assumptions about the HSE Aoife has a pensionable job and works hard for it. And HSE is in the news a lot, eg the cervical test issues. But Aoife can only account for the work she does. Elderly people would always ask her the same two questions; can you get me a medical card and can you get me glasses? Welfare officers used to be downstairs in Grattan Street Medical Centre there could be an array of different characters. Sometimes there would be uproar with someone trying to skip the queue for the welfare officer. Gone to look at the style in weddings in the registry office in the front of the building. First gay marriage in Cork in the registry office. Everyone gets on there’s never been a major falling out between staff. Nice, friendly place to work even though shabby. Taken phone calls from elderly people who are looking for a different department and Aoife goes out of her way to help them. |
1.04.00 - 1.06.39
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Crimes and Old Dispensary Doctor’s handbag was taken and the thief got disorientated ran into the clinic room not out front door and dropped his mobile phone. Someone covered Sean (the porter’s) duties and a laptop was stolen. Aoife’s car was broken into one day. People had a misconception that Grattan Street Medical Centre was the old dispensary that there was drugs there. Only thing they could get was head lice lotion, bandages. Says the building belonged to the Mormons [means Quakers] who gave it to HSE to help the poor of Cork. |
1.06.39 - 1.09.15
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Accidents: Windows and Filing Cabinet Window have been here for a while. Sign on her office window which said “brrrrrr” and that was the noise the window made when it was windy! The window came away from the fitting one day while opening it. Hit her head into an open filing cabinet after answering phone once. Went to the Mercy (hospital) with the cut which wasn’t able to be stitched. |
1.09.15 - 1.11.13
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Cars Aoife was youngest in Grattan Street Medical Centre for a long time. “The baby of Grattan Street”. Aoife has a thing for cars. Could go out at lunchtime and could come back with a new car. Went to move her car and someone told her to call her parent to move it because she looked so young. |
1.11.13 - 1.12.00
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Ghost of Grattan Street Medical Centre Someone had a meeting and something fell and Sean the porter told them it was the ghost. Aoife says the “Ghost is actually real” heartbroken and traumatised by having to leave. |
1.12.00 - 1.12.58
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Different Dynamics in new Primary Care Centre Dynamics will be different in St Mary’s: won’t all be meeting in the canteen or chatting |
1.12.58 - 1.13.42
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Changes to job in new Primary Care Centre Currently all files and printer are in her office but in St Mary’s those are all centralised. Expects teething problems. |
1.13.42 - 1.16.32
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Grattan Street can’t let go of Aoife Would still take the job if she had the time over. Even though Aoife has tried to leave her job a few times something has always happened so that she ended up staying eg. an application form she sent off was blank, once there was a mix up with a panel, another time the job she went for changed from HSE to social work, she lost 6 family members in 6 or 7 years. Always had someone to turn to, support, friendly ear and chat in Grattan Street Medical Centre. “Burning the place down so no one can have it!” |
1.16.32 - 01.18.40
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Hopes for future of Grattan Street Medical Centre Disability services, child adolescent mental health, eating disorder clinic. Hate to see it turned into apartments. Lovely community- it should be kept. Food after Christmas parties is brought up to Edel House and food brought to Penny Dinners as well. Lots of vulnerable people in the area and lots of elderly people. Hopes podiatry can keep a room for foot care for the elderly with diabetes etc. prefer to see it remain as something that’s giving to the community. |
1.18.40 - 1.19.01
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Reflections on Grattan Street as Workplace Quirky characters. Fun place to work. |
1.19.01 - 1.19.50
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Fairies Aoife imagined fairies in the trees at her childhood home. Says she has a great imagination. She perhaps took the idea from The “Secret Garden”, she also loved “The Never Ending Story”. |
1.19.50 - 1.20.01
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Outro Interview Ends |
Mentions her brother’s physical and mental disability.
Discusses how the smell of tripe and drisheen reminds of father who died when she was young
Recounts her surprise and confusion as a child learning that her mother had remarried and her new husband was to live in the family home.
Outlines the routine on farm including looking after the cows, feeding hens, making bread, and how their dinner changed with seasonal availability of produce.
Talks about her commute to school on a bicycle with sister and standing up to boys who hassled them. Learned some subjects through Irish. Recalls her sister disliking being singled out by teacher because of her attractive eyes and hair.
Remembers seeing a young JP McManus cycling.
Explains how she always considered becoming a nurse. Discusses training and hospital experiences including with nuns. Believes that nurses who had worked abroad had a broader perspective on life.
Outlines the role of the Public Health Nurse which required entering patients’ houses and assisting them with births and deaths. Other features included the need to be able to read emotions and build trust with others and managing your work largely independently.
Describes some memorable cases as a PHN. A family singing Boney M to a baby with a severely lif-limiting condition. Waiting for an ambulance for a man struggling to breathe who lived without electricity. Trying to find help for an older woman struggling with dementia who was being passed from one agency to another without resolution. Fumigating a woman’s accommodation to rid it of fleas, the poor living conditions she found there and the ambivalent reaction of the woman to this health intervention.
Discusses vaccines, their role in eliminating polio and the varying attitudes to vaccination.
Recounts the story of social welfare officers in Grattan Street providing a bed to a woman who promptly sold it on the Coal Quay.
Reflects on the mutually beneficial mix of medical disciplines in Grattan Street and the positive relations between the staff.
Outlines the problems, changes and tensions relating to the car parking situation for Grattan Street staff and others in the surrounding community.
Talks about a child welfare issue where she had to attend court as a PHN.
Speaks of the deficiencies of the Grattan Street building including plaster falling off walls, the waste of paperwork, dry rot, bars on windows and a very out-of-date photocopier. Suggests future uses for the building.
Tells the story of the 2010 floods when the vaccines had to transferred with difficulty to St Finbarr’s Hospital for safety.
Discusses the desirable feature of the new building in Gurranbraher including it having a central meeting area and parking as well as being of a manageable size, accessible and approachable.
Reflects on how she found her career of helping others rewarding.
]]>‘Mary’ grew up on a farm in county Limerick, part of which was rented to a mental hospital to be worked by patients. By interacting with these patients she quickly learned who you could trust and who you couldn’t.
Mentions her brother’s physical and mental disability.
Discusses how the smell of tripe and drisheen reminds of father who died when she was young
Recounts her surprise and confusion as a child learning that her mother had remarried and her new husband was to live in the family home.
Outlines the routine on farm including looking after the cows, feeding hens, making bread, and how their dinner changed with seasonal availability of produce.
Talks about her commute to school on a bicycle with sister and standing up to boys who hassled them. Learned some subjects through Irish. Recalls her sister disliking being singled out by teacher because of her attractive eyes and hair.
Remembers seeing a young JP McManus cycling.
Explains how she always considered becoming a nurse. Discusses training and hospital experiences including with nuns. Believes that nurses who had worked abroad had a broader perspective on life.
Outlines the role of the Public Health Nurse which required entering patients’ houses and assisting them with births and deaths. Other features included the need to be able to read emotions and build trust with others and managing your work largely independently.
Describes some memorable cases as a PHN. A family singing Boney M to a baby with a severely lif-limiting condition. Waiting for an ambulance for a man struggling to breathe who lived without electricity. Trying to find help for an older woman struggling with dementia who was being passed from one agency to another without resolution. Fumigating a woman’s accommodation to rid it of fleas, the poor living conditions she found there and the ambivalent reaction of the woman to this health intervention.
Discusses vaccines, their role in eliminating polio and the varying attitudes to vaccination.
Recounts the story of social welfare officers in Grattan Street providing a bed to a woman who promptly sold it on the Coal Quay.
Reflects on the mutually beneficial mix of medical disciplines in Grattan Street and the positive relations between the staff.
Outlines the problems, changes and tensions relating to the car parking situation for Grattan Street staff and others in the surrounding community.
Talks about a child welfare issue where she had to attend court as a PHN.
Speaks of the deficiencies of the Grattan Street building including plaster falling off walls, the waste of paperwork, dry rot, bars on windows and a very out-of-date photocopier. Suggests future uses for the building.
Tells the story of the 2010 floods when the vaccines had to transferred with difficulty to St Finbarr’s Hospital for safety.
Discusses the desirable feature of the new building in Gurranbraher including it having a central meeting area and parking as well as being of a manageable size, accessible and approachable.
Reflects on how she found her career of helping others rewarding.
0.00.00 - 0.00.25 |
Intro |
0.00.25 - 0.02.29 |
Background Grew up in County Limerick. Dad died when young. Early memory as 3 year old feeding a calf. Trained in St Johns Limerick, midwifery in Glasgow, 1975 went to Australia- Melbourne, Sidney, Brisbane. Returned after a year. Worked in Orthopaedic hospital in Croom, Limerick. Came to Cork, worked in Sarsfield’s Court [Glanmire] in the chest unit. Met a man which is why she stayed in Cork. Nursing involved night-duty and weekends, and "Mary" was thinking forward and did the Public Health Course to become PHN Public Health Nurse- first assignment was Middle Parish based in Grattan Street. |
0.02.29 - 0.05.26 |
Early Memories: Father’s Death, Family Women with tea and USA biscuits. Seeing lines of men in the hay barn and animals coming out- must have been auction of the animals. One older brother mentally & physically handicapped, 2 younger sisters. Mental Hospital St Joseph’s in Limerick rented land from their farm so there was an income coming in without the mother taking sole responsibility for running the farm. It was therapy for the patients working on the farm despite being out in all weather. "Mary" thinks that many of the male patients were there as a result of the war. One man was called Sergeant. "Mary's" family also got fresh vegetables from them. Learning process for them, learned who they could trust and who not- “heightened our awareness of mankind”. Some people were fit and healthy and others had mental issues. |
0.05.26 - 0.09.30 |
Memory of Smell of Tripe Cooking reminds of dad When in St Johns in 2nd year of training ages 19 or 20- she had a memory of a taste and smell. Walking on corridor in 1st floor she got the smell. Found her way to room 8 and a priest was having tripe and drisheen or tripe and packet as it’s called in Limerick. You could get the smell passing Shaws abattoir on the way into Limerick City. They had a hooter which would sound at 1pm and 5pm or 6pm in the evening which could be heard by "Mary" at home. Says that tripe is the lining of a sheep’s stomach. “Villi”- nooks and crannies. Still buys it in the English Market on the left hand-side when you enter from the Grand Parade- and there was someone in front of her in the queue so she wasn’t the only one buying it! Advises opening a window to let the small out! |
0.09.30 - 0.10.35 |
Typical Day on the Farm when Growing up- making bread They had a cow on the farm. Woman called May who helped out their mother on the farm. They would put on their “busy coat” or “duds” to milk cow, bring in milk, make brown soda bread. Remembers mother making bread around 10am in an earthenware crock with sour milk in it which went into the Aga oven. |
0.10.35 - 0.13.05 |
Learning about her Mother Remarrying Tom worked with the mental hospital and he would call in and there was a china cup for him. "Mary" asked her mother whether Tom slept in the house now, and previously asked May where her mother was and was told she was on holidays. Subsequently she realised that her mother had married Tom and they had been on honeymoon. Reflects on how little information she was given about this change in situation and how it applies in her nursing role and thinks that sometimes less information is better when dealing with young children who may not fully understand everything. |
0.13.05- 0.16.00 |
Typical Day on the Farm when Growing up In winter deal with the cow: hay, water, and muck out. Cow let out in the field in spring and summer. Dinner would be any time after the cake was made- ready about 12:30. Dinner usually bacon, cabbage, carrots, parsnips. As season moved on more turnips and potatoes. Seasonal. Started with Ker Pinks then Golden Wonders, didn’t like soapy Aran Banners. Then apple or rhubarb tarts. Supper at 5pm or 6pm: beans, bananas, eggs. They had hens which had to be fed. Went to bed at 8pm or 9pm. In evening have to bring the cow back down and there might be 10 or 12 bullocks following you- nightmare that they would trample you to death? Mother and May made the food. When "Mary" was 7 or 8 years old May was let go as "Mary" was considered old enough to help out. |
0.16.00- 0.17.57 |
Interaction with the Patients of the Mental Hospital Looking out the window watching them. Sheep shearing and rolling of the wool. Taking off the “daggings” and rolling the wool into fleeces. Or bringing in the hay watching them piking and the change from horses to tractors. There was an archway into their yard and it became harder to get larger machines through the arch over time. Later on it became bales of hay rather than wines of hay (in Limerick) whereas in Cork they would call it trams. |
0.17.57 - 0.19.17 |
Animals, Games and Mushrooms They prepared the animals with special soaps for the Limerick Show in August [Limerick Agricultural Show Society]. As children they would sit on the walls in the cow house (cowhouse) and use the chains as stirrups and pretend to be riding horses. Picked mushrooms in fields often along the path the cows had made where you’d find mushrooms. |
0.19.17- 0.21.36
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Going to School and Standing up for Yourself Walk across the fields to get to the road to school which was 2 miles away, wear wellies if raining. When older cycled to school. Had the younger sister in the carrier. Fell off the bike coming down Ryan’s Hill and the sister fell into the bushes and the nettles. Mother gave out to them for falling off the bike. In 6th class coming up the hill on was home from school at cousin Mick Clancy’s hill boys thought it was fun to hold on to the carrier to hold them back. "Mary's" mother advised to throw a stone at the boys. The next time it happened she picked up a rock and the boys ran away. It was lesson for "Mary" for life to stand up for herself and that the threat was enough to work. |
0.21.36- 0.25.44
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School 5 years old when she started school, thinks it might have been around Easter time. Small two teacher school. Mrs McAvoy the principal of the school had taught her father, and was distantly related to "Mary". "Mary's" sister was put on the teacher’s desk to be admired because of her beautiful eyes and hair- which she disliked because she was being made to feel different. 6 pupils in her class in 5th class and they were given the choice to do History and Geography through English or Irish and they chose to do it through Irish. The teacher was from Dingle and from him they learned a “love and appreciation” for Irish. Had good spoken Irish in a secondary school in Limerick City. Her knowledge of Irish helped later on as a PHN when she was assigned an area which had a Gaeltacht in it. Most Gaeltacht schools were insistent that the PHNs did use Irish. "Mary" went to Secondary School in the Presentation in Sexton Street. |
0.25.44 - 0.27.57 |
Neighbour’s House and JP McManus on a Bike A little old lady, a spinster called Noni lived in road opposite them. She had old open fireplace with bellows, and thatched roof and two dogs. "Mary" had a step-brother and a step-sister. The step brother was quiet and calm in Noni’s house but he was cross and looking for attention when he was at home. A guy in secondary school used to cycle past in a red bike and "Mary" later discovered it was JP McManus [businessman and racehorse owner] and her younger sister knew him. |
0.27.57 - 0.29.49
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Starting in Nursing after School Always in the back of her mind to do nursing. Did leaving cert when 17 and did interview for nursing. Had started a commercial course. The Blue Nuns ran St. John’s Hospital and knew she was due to start in February. Millford House in Castletroy was run by Blue Nuns and they had a nursing home and "Mary" dropped the commercial course and worked there as a nurses aid. It was a good introduction and confidence building exercise for her. "Mary" thinks that for the nuns patient care was paramount and the written work less important but it is almost the reverse today. |
0.29.49 - 0.34.51
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Decision to do Nursing and Other Career Options Looking at magazines and what nursing involved. Career guidance consisted of blue leaflets. Through the commercial course "Mary" heard about the Junior X course to get into the civil service and the ESB jobs which she hadn’t been aware of through school. Travel was something that she considered and nursing catered for that. The nurses who had lived abroad were easier to work with they had a broader perspective on life and “didn’t sweat the small stuff”. When you started nursing you got to see the different fields and "Mary" liked theatre work and enjoyed the labour ward when she was doing midwifery. Matron had said to her that she should considered doing the tutoring course. Thinks this is because she was questioning what her tutor was reading out of textbooks. She applied for the tutoring course. But she while she had anatomy and biology for the leaving cert but not chemistry and physics. So she did leaving cert physics and chemistry that year but dropped the physics because she had also taken on introduction to psychology. But she had already gotten the Public Health so she chose that. |
0.34.51 - 0.43.07 |
Public Health Nurse: Role and Duties PHN you are on your own to some extent you can plan your day, assess the patient. Communicate with the patient GP and hospital. You were independent to a large extent. Had continuity you could see things improving or ‘disimproving’. House visits, vaccination clinics as part of a team, coffee or lunch in Grattan Street where you met other disciplines not just nursing. A mix. Could be rostered for a dressings clinic in Grattan Street. They might have been referred after discharge from the Mercy Hospital. Now the Mercy would have its own dressings clinic. Going to schools dealing with healthy children and teachers. Originally had an admin person with them but now just a doctor and nurse when going to vaccinate in schools. HPV vaccination a big team goes to try to get the first years done in one go. Health promotion going into houses and dealing with young mums. Private houses, corporation houses built in 1950s and 1960s, apartments or flats as they called them then. Leave a note for someone who you couldn’t find in a flat. Maybe a baby that wasn’t feeding very well. Hear that the mother has moved house and start detective work to track her down asking neighbours. And the nurse in their new area would be informed. Write letters to council about the poor conditions of housing. And then neighbours would ask for letters then as well. |
0.43.07 - 0.51.42 |
Perspective & Expectations of Patients on Healthcare Most people were welcoming and giving you tea that you didn’t want. A few were trying to get the PHN to adapt too much to their own schedules. For patients the PHN came at the beginning of life and at the end of life. Would be asked “do you think it’s better today nurse?” and trying to read the emotions of the other family members. Understanding with the GP about what the family situation was. Some people would ask for everything they thought they could get other families would never ask for anything. PHN has to decide how necessary a request is or how much someone needs to be persuaded. Try to stay on side and be persistent. Older people at the time had the idea that you only left a hospital in a box. So it could be hard to persuade them to go to hospital. Fear of lack of independence as well. Reflect on how nursing training prepares PHN for these situations. "Tread wearily" and "feel the vibes" when entering a new patient environment. Privilege to be with people in their time of need because you felt that you were doing something and you were a support to the family especially in the time before morphine pumps. Even saying “I don’t think anything is going to happen tonight” might be the simple reassurance that the family wants. Fear with a bedbound patient is that they would get pressure sores. One of the ways to avoid this is to change their position. And there was some education involved in ensuring whoever was moving the patient when the PHN isn’t there was doing it correctly. Extended family would assist with a patient in a way less common today. |
0.51.42 - 0.55.45
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Memories of mothers and their babies and music Remembers a family who lived in one of the lanes off North Main Street. “me mam” was what the family called the beautiful mother who had a lame leg, she had grey-blond hair. One of the daughters had a baby that had a life-limited condition. The whole family were supporting them. They were always well made-up and the sick baby was in the middle. The baby didn’t survive only lived for 8 or 9 months. The family used to sing “Brown Girl in the Ring” by Boney M and the baby used to recognise it and respond. Sleet and rain coming up North Main Street. Pound shop maybe called Powers Jim Reeves and Bing Crosby singing White Christmas which lifted her heart. Streets were full at Christmastime. |
0.55.45 - 1.01.36
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Patients and Cases and conditions in the Grattan Street/ Middle Parish Area Remembers rickety stairs leading to flats above shops which you wouldn’t realise were there. Old man lived in laneway off Grattan Street in a tenement house like those in Glasgow she had seen near York Hill, with red sandstone buildings. Went to this man on a quick “social visit” and he had rasping breath. Just “kippins” or laths on the fire. No electricity. Waiting two hours for ambulance to come. Man didn’t survive. Something else in place of the building now. There may not have been a door on the house you could just walk straight in. |
0.55.45 - 0.58.18 |
Patients and Cases and conditions in the Grattan Street/ Middle Parish Area- difficulties of nursing and dealing with different agencies. Woman with dementia in 1970s one room flat in warm house. Bathroom outside. Wasn’t able to look after herself. Had the newspapers stored on top of the electric cooker. GP trying to get her somewhere. Woman would lock herself out. Half naked walking across Sheare’s Street. "Mary" put her in own car and brought her to Our Lady’s Hospital to be seen by psychiatrist. They wouldn’t take her because of her age. Arranged geriatrician appointment who wouldn’t take her because she was psychiatric. A “street woman” (homeless woman) moved in with her and was able to make sure the house wouldn’t be set on fire. Meals on Wheels or Penny Dinners sharing the one meal. "Mary's" frustration with the bureaucracy. |
0.58.18 - 1.05.20 |
Woman with Flea Bites/ Flea Marks "Mary" being polite said told her it was a rash but the woman had no qualms about calling them fleabites. "Mary" got temporary eviction order to clean out her flat. Process was traumatic for "Mary" & the woman. Woman spent her time in St Francis Church while her flat was being cleaned. The woman had collected things from bins and stored them in her house in case she might use them and they removed 57 bags of rubbish. Found a beautiful photograph album. Mounds of rubbish as high as the bed. Bucket to empty into the toilet. Candles in danger of burning the house down. The woman was upset that her stuff had been taken but they had put her things in storage in case she wanted them. As PHN you can wear your own clothes but "Mary"wore white uniform in case of infestation in the flat. Man from environmental health section sprayed the flat. "Mary" counted 57 dead fleas on her uniform when she took it off in the bath when she got home. Later with her boyfriend at the time the same woman shouted “Hello nurse!” at her. |
1.05.20 - 1.18.38
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Vaccines, Vaccination and the anti-vaccination People were pro vaccinate after 1956 polio outbreak in Cork. Many people would have been familiar with Polio, its devastating affect and that you can be vaccinated against it. People had to come to the clinic 3 or 4 times with a baby which might be difficult for families with many children and buggies. Remembers vulnerable family in Knocknaheeney. The mother was poor with keeping appointments and she came in the pouring rain with 4 or 5 children. Cost of taxi was 11 pounds or euro even though she had to live on social welfare. The staff suggested that she could get a bus. But she pointed out that one of her children was ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and that he would be climbing on the bus stop. "Mary" says the woman deserved a medal and reflects that they as staff had been judging her for her predicament. Crowds of people and buggies. Role of extended family in assisting with child rearing. Some children may be difficult to deal with. Obstacles to families getting children vaccinated. Vaccination card files. Brought from City Hall to the place of vaccination and not locked. Vaccines were taken from a fridge in City Hall and brought in a biscuit tin along with adrenaline in case someone had a reaction. Compares this to the modern method of cold-chain. After Professor Wakefield made an association between MMR vaccine and autism the vaccination uptake reduced and it’s been an uphill battle since to reverse it. In 1970s and 1980s there was memory of measles, mumps, meningitis and polio. "Mary" worked in a school where a child refused vaccinations in junior infants in the early 1980s. That child got measles, encephalitis and was in a wheelchair by 1st class and by age 8 or 9 she was dead. HCA (Handicapped Childrens Allowance) allowance handicapped children’s allowance financial support for the extra care that was needed for the child. Thinks of the scaremongering about vaccines and the consciences of those people if they knew what the result of not getting vaccinated was. That incident happened in the early 1980s. Worked with a doctor who had difficulty walking after he had got polio in the 1950s. Young mothers in 1970s and 1980s had mothers who influenced them based on their accounts in the diseases in 1950s. Rural approach to vaccines: if you eat healthy and are healthy then you won’t contract the disease. "Mary" says that while a weaker person succumbs to a disease faster it’s not a protection against a disease. Rural culture which still exists of “I don’t believe in vaccines”. HPV vaccines. With all vaccines certain percentage of risk even though it is very rare. Weigh up the advantages versus the risk of something happening. Vaccine cold chain from manufacturer to the administering to the child is much more streamlined. Incidence of polio came down so vaccines were effective. |
1.18.38 - 1.21.46
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Earliest Memories of Grattan Street Waiting room now it’s opened up with pillars and a balcony. When "Mary" started it had a ceiling and so was enclosed and it had a wooden floor where you could hear the “clip clop” of people walking across it echoing. They didn’t have access to the upstairs with stores and pigeons. According to Anne [a friend who worked there] there were stores of the things leftover from when Grattan Street was used as a dispensary/pharmacy/chemist. Old fashioned metal chairs with a timber seat. Queue in the mornings for the dressing, older people with big swollen legs. Mr Hart and Mr Condon were the social welfare officers and they would have clinics which had crowds of people waiting for them. People would receive bed linen or washing machines. Mr Hart advised "Mary" once that when he started out he was given a sob story and he got someone a number of beds and later he saw them being sold on the Coal Quay! Smoking was allowed at the time so there was the smell and fog of smoke. |
1.21.46 - 1.23.14
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Repairs and Revamp/ Refurbishment of Grattan Street Transferred to the City Hall while there was revamping or refurbishing of Grattan Street. Once they returned one of the admin staff noticed that a there was some dry rot on part of the wood in the jam of the door and more repairs had to be done. Beautiful once the repairs were done. Opened up the ceiling with the balcony. The big tea room could be used for meetings and there was a fridge and kettle- luxury! |
1.23.14 - 1.27.35 |
Grattan Street as a Workplace “You could never call it glamorous!”. Bars on the windows. Hose reel for the fire. For fire drills the bars on some windows could be opened. The people to work with were fabulous. Dave in podiatry said ‘the building was crap but the people were lovely’. Building was fine, serviceable. "Mary" had a sense of history of the building and that it was privilege to work in it. Beautiful cut limestone blocks. Appreciated that and the big windows. Anne set off the alarm once when she went out the back door. There was once a mix up with the keys. The cleaners would lock up and throw the keys in the letter box and someone else would open up in the morning with another set of keys. But somehow both sets of keys were in the letter box. "Mary" climbed in through a window that was opened and was able to open the door from the inside! Sean the porter would remember this story and Pam from the eye clinic would remember it as well. |
1.27.35 - 1.30.11
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Description of Grattan Street Historic, homely, old grandeur, comfortable but uncomfortable, people are willing to work and find solutions. Nice building at one level but primitive at another level. Staff were always lovely and gelled. Started with 3 disciplines and that expanded. People were caring and good sense of comradery, work spirit and work ethic. Old photocopier that was there for 20-30 years which was always breaking down. They used to repair it themselves. When they asked for a new one they were told “it’s not pride is making ye ask for a new one!” |
1.30.11 - 1.31.23
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The Effect of the Mix of Disciplines Levelling effect. Nobody thought they were above anyone. Meet people from other disciples who could make exceptions or give advice- could tic-tac with one another. It was very personal. You weren’t going into someone else’s territory through some doors. They all met in the tea rom. |
1.31.23 - 1.33.08
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Car Park No car parking when "Mary" began. Staff and outsiders could park there. There was some kind of grandfather clause which allowed non-staff to park there. There used to be agro between the staff about it until they realised they were all in the same boat. Then the Educate Together School opened up and they were trying to park their cars there too. It’s hassle. Manic at times. Compares it to Mr Bean. Residents had parking. |
1.33.08 - 1.35.46
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Child Welfare Case Child welfare issue was brought in front of Judge Clifford. The mother had issues with alcohol and depression (those problems could affect children not getting vaccines as well). "Mary" remembers child or 4 or 5 years of age with bottle in their mouth and the bottle had whiskey in it. The fridge had one tomato in it. What should the staff wear to court- should they wear a hat? "Mary" was obliged to call to the house as a result of the case. And the child was eventually fostered. Wheelchairs and how tough it was for families and children growing up and needing bigger wheelchairs. Makes you think how lucky you are according to "Mary". |
1.35.46 - 1.37.39
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Curiosities and Quirks of Grattan Street Building Pigeons could be heard upstairs and the exterminator came. Plaster crumbling off the walls in Grattan Street. Paperwork and records. New letterheads and they were ordered to dump things while people downstairs were looking for things but there was money being wasted on paperwork being thrown out. |
1.37.39 - 1.41.50
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Floods 2010 and Transporting Vaccines Vaccines were stored in a special room with fridges wired directly to the mains, there was a fear the power would be lost. Water was at the door. Vaccines should be transferred to St Finbarr’s hospital. "Mary" and Sean the porter waited for a van to come to transport them. Eventually a fiesta arrived with 2 big men. They had 20-30 boxes like cool boxes. They made two trips in "Mary's" car to bring the vaccines across town through the floods. Describes herself as a determined person. Onetime borrowed waders from Meitheal Mara on Crosses Green and walked to Grattan Street in them. |
1.41.50 - 1.43.18
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Future of Grattan Street Building Historical connection with William Penn. Would like to see Grattan Street be a visitor centre or a place for weddings. Could have a little garden or courtyard. Current waiting room could be used. Catering could be provided there as well. |
1.43.18 - 1.46.50
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Hopes for St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre Hopes there is suitable parking. And tied up thinking from the planning department and developers. Encouraging people to go green and use bicycles etc. is fine but closing parking isn’t the place to start. There should be a place to make a cup of tea yourself. Good service for people who need it and people feel they can access it. Hope it isn’t too big, and there won’t be sections that you will never meet. A central meeting place is desirable where you could meet someone you don’t directly work with. |
1.46.50 - 1.48.40
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Making the Building Approachable Easy access. Does there need to be a service for mothers to get up the hill to the health centre? Will there be a place for children to play in? People should be given specific individual appointments not 20 appointments sent out for 2pm. Access to water like a watercooler. |
1.48.40 - 1.52.00
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Decision to Become a Nurse Would choose to be a nurse if she had the option over again. Has enjoyed life and had a good home life. Have had lots of opportunities. Could have become pigeonholed in one area. In one way "Mary" feels she has cut herself off from other aspects of nursing that she was interested in- clinical and theatre related work. Rewarding helping mothers and children with bed wetting issues. |
1.52.00- End |
Outro. Interview ends 1.52.13 |