CFP_SR00502_kay_2014;
CFP_SR00516_browne_2014;
CFP_SR00518_dee_2014;
CFP_SR00519_casey_2014;
CFP_SR00521_mccarthy_2014;
CFP_SR00532_davis_2014;
CFP_SR00534_kiely_2014;
CFP_SR00547_curtin_2015;
CFP_SR00548_mcallister_2015;
CFP_SR00549_neville_2015;
CFP_SR00555_whelan_2015;
CFP_SR00556_lynch_2015;
CFP_SR00558_doherty_2015;
CFP_SR00561_kerrigan_2015;
CFP_SR00576_odonnabhain_2016;
DC And did you ever go on the scene before you came out or did that all happen after?
PM No, no I started going to the Otherplace at twenty-seven, twenty-eight, kind of, every Saturday night, sneaking in and sneaking out, I knew nobody so I was just going there, I used to get the last bus up, hop in, down the dark alley, sneak in the door, mortified, knocking at the door, please let me in, and going in so for the first kind of I’d say two days before I came out to myself I was kind of dabbling, not meeting anyone, just going to the club and stuff and then met a few friends and it got a bit more regular every week and then it was going to Loafers every week and then it kind of worked from there.
SD Can you tell us a little bit more about your first time going to the Otherplace, the atmosphere, the feelings?
PM Oh nightmare, nightmare, I used to stress, I don’t drink so I used to go up on the bus and I used to be getting ready at home and I used to get the twenty past ten bus now cause at that stage I knew no one so I used to go on my own and its down in the middle of town but its down a very dark street so you walk down, its two kind of doors and one is kind of closed off but not knowing it I used to knock at the wrong door so for the first few weeks I was like slow, knocking at the wrong door with no one coming out to me and eventually I kind of cased the joint and go out again and come around and eventually I learned that there was cameras inside so they were all watching me, laughing at me because over the time they said you were always going to the wrong door why did you keep picking the wrong door, and you had to be a member at that time so the first few times was a nightmare, walking in and this big blurry, burly bouncer said do you know where you are and I said yeah cringing, then the people behind the counter taking your coat and I’m saying I hope I know no one, you walk up a stairs, then you open a door and everyone turns and then you die, and then after a while you kind of, once I’m in there then I’m fine its just initially getting inside the door was a nightmare, for about a month, it took me months to get used to walking in there, hated it, cause you could open the door and see anyone, it could be a woman dressed as a man, or a man dressed as a woman, sorry, and it could be a bit intense so yeah, nightmare, but after a few months of that it was grand.
DC What year would this have been around?
PM I’m now forty-four so twenty eight how long ago is that, sixteen years ago, so it would have been 1990’s, late 1990’s, so I was doing the club scene from the 1990s onwards and then I was doing Loafers now and again, like once, depending on who I was with and hanging around with but yeah it was around that time, 1990’s, late 1990’s when I started to kind of dabble in that part of life.
CFP_SR00502_kay_2014;
CFP_SR00516_browne_2014;
CFP_SR00518_dee_2014;
CFP_SR00519_casey_2014;
CFP_SR00521_mccarthy_2014;
CFP_SR00532_davis_2014;
CFP_SR00534_kiely_2014;
CFP_SR00547_curtin_2015;
CFP_SR00548_mcallister_2015;
CFP_SR00549_neville_2015;
CFP_SR00555_whelan_2015;
CFP_SR00556_lynch_2015;
CFP_SR00558_doherty_2015;
CFP_SR00561_kerrigan_2015;
CFP_SR00576_odonnabhain_2016;
SD Okay and when did you first discover the gay scene, or was there a gay scene, or how did you meet other homosexuals?
PMc Well in the 1960s, 1970s in Cork, there was no scene, I don’t even know, I never remember hearing the word scene, I discovered that people who felt like me, met in public toilets and the Nell MacCafferty thing obviously reinforced that, and the Nell MacCafferty court cases never put me off going into public toilets and meeting people and when I think about it now, it all sounds terribly sordid and I know it has become a kind of a subculture within the gay community, the whole cottaging the scene, and though it isn’t kind of necessary anymore I think there are still people who like to do that, almost for old times sake I suppose, that was my, that was all I was aware off in Cork. In the late 60’s early 70’s and, you know because of the nature of the situation like you went into a toilet and you met somebody and it was usually for sex and nothing else. Because you were meeting other people, who were every bit as isolated and lonely and maybe repressed, and maybe terrified that somebody would see them, as I was, and that was it. And in a way I mean I was relatively young, and I suppose anybody that I went off with, could actually have been in very serious trouble because essentially I was underage and they weren’t so it was quite an abusive situation but I didn’t see it like that you know, and it is something that I look back on now, with sadness and [pause] and I don’t think it is the most healthy way for anybody to develop their sexual identity. But that was all that was there, that was all we knew, those of us who frequented public toilets as I said, we weren’t aware of any scene, I am not sure if there was a scene, I certainly wasn’t aware of it. And one of like there is nothing you can do now. It is a, it is been, it is a huge source of regret to be now, that my formative sexual years, were carried out in that kind of environment that kind of situation, it is when, when I look now at people, growing up in their teens and, and, coming to terms with there identity and seeing all the support that is there for them, the fact that it is talked about in the schools, that is on in the school curricula and there are books TV programme etc all sorts of things around the place. And most importantly of all, places where they can go and meet other gay people and relate in a normal natural healthy way that I didn’t have growing up that and it is not just me, nobody in Cork had, as far as I know, at that time.
CFP_SR00502_kay_2014;
CFP_SR00516_browne_2014;
CFP_SR00518_dee_2014;
CFP_SR00519_casey_2014;
CFP_SR00521_mccarthy_2014;
CFP_SR00532_davis_2014;
CFP_SR00534_kiely_2014;
CFP_SR00547_curtin_2015;
CFP_SR00548_mcallister_2015;
CFP_SR00549_neville_2015;
CFP_SR00555_whelan_2015;
CFP_SR00556_lynch_2015;
CFP_SR00558_doherty_2015;
CFP_SR00561_kerrigan_2015;
CFP_SR00576_odonnabhain_2016;
FK I was actually doing a line with a girl in the early eighties and do you know even when I was with her I still thought I would prefer to be with a guy and that kind of relationship broke down and I didn’t do any more about chasing women after that and eventually I got the courage up to go over there with Ned and then I think from there on I started accepting it and, accepted it in my own head anyway that this head wasn’t going to change like you know its not going to go away at this stage, em, still didn’t really tell anybody other than the guy that I went over with, but one night then I suppose two or three years later I was living a secret life going in there for a while but I told a good friend of mine at the time, he was a married man, much older than me with a family. I told him one night, it was around Christmas, his family had gone to bed and we were still having a few drinks and I told him by the way and even authorised that he could tell everyone the following day if he wanted so it got out around that particular circle eventually. I never told anybody at work as such except one fellow and that was pure accident, em, I used to work down west Cork at the time but I lived in the city but this one character he used to like to come up to Cork for a few drinks, wouldn’t say every week now but every second week and he tried to make a point of meeting me and we used to always meet on Douglas Street, the Gables generally at the time and eh, I’d want to get down to Loafers before closing time do you know just to see who was around, whatever, he used go nightclubbing the nights he would come up, stay in Cork for the night and go nightclubbing. I was always escaping from him around eleven o clock and em, one night he says to me, em, Fi (possibly short for Finbarr) where do you go now, you always go away around this time, where do you go? I’m dying to know, ah I said I just go down the road to some other pup down there. Which one do you go to and maybe I had a few pints that night and I said well Dennis actually its fucking Loafers and I told him straight out then and he got the biggest land of his life, em, he more or less said he thought I would be the last person in the world to be gay but anyway he said you know what I always wanted to see what that pub is like can I come down with you, so he actually came down with me for a drink that night.
DC Ah cool!
FK And em I still meet the same guy, I’m gone out of that firm nine years now maybe and he’s gone out of it even before me but we still meet regularly for a drink, well when I say regularly maybe once a year, twice a year max and he never told anyone else down in work so as far as I’m concerned work never knew but I was always, I worked in west Cork, lived in Cork city so the two lives didn’t clash you know, I kept my social life completely separate from work life so as far as I know nobody down there knew, for as long as I was there now maybe I’m wrong maybe they did know and they were just been polite you know as I’m a good actor you know. I worked with another fellow in Cork, em, up to three years ago and god he was every day he’d be telling me about his conquests for the night with different various women whatever, I met the guy there last year for a drink and em, there was another member with us who he had got to know we used to meet kind of regularly and he got to know another gay character with me and the gay fellow was going away one night and my friend says where are you going now and he said I’m going down to Loafers and he said uh and when he was gone the other fellow asked me I never knew he was gay and I says sure you never asked him, I suppose not he said, by the way I am too he said whaaaat…(laughter) now a week later I met him again or two weeks later and as it turned out he ended up coming back here and initiated some sexual activity.
CFP_SR00502_kay_2014;
CFP_SR00516_browne_2014;
CFP_SR00518_dee_2014;
CFP_SR00519_casey_2014;
CFP_SR00521_mccarthy_2014;
CFP_SR00532_davis_2014;
CFP_SR00534_kiely_2014;
CFP_SR00547_curtin_2015;
CFP_SR00548_mcallister_2015;
CFP_SR00549_neville_2015;
CFP_SR00555_whelan_2015;
CFP_SR00556_lynch_2015;
CFP_SR00558_doherty_2015;
CFP_SR00561_kerrigan_2015;
CFP_SR00576_odonnabhain_2016;
DC So do you feel in your own little way the small interactions in your everyday life and just been living down here in Mallow and your not the two point four children white picket fence family, that you are a bit alternative that you are making some changes, and sometimes that’s all you need to do, you don’t need to be part of this massive activist kind of group maybe sometimes getting on with your life quietly in the small day to day interactions you are actually making small changes.
CB Without even realising it, yeah, on of, you’ve just reminded me but apologies my pet fly Freddy has come back (laughter), when we had our ceremony our neighbours they used to be ourselves and our other neighbours up the road, we were the only ones here just until recently and we just got to know them, we never said anything and then we were having our ceremony and we invited them and I never forget the wife, she is a lovely lady, Joan and she turned around and she said you know what she said delighted to be invited but I’ve also never been to one of these before and I just wanted to see what way it would turn out and even at the ceremony one of my cousins turned around, I’ll never forget she was walking by me, the language, it wasn’t bad language she said feck sake this is better than my own wedding, heterosexual couple, so we are making probably slight changes as you say but we still get a few little knocks. There is a crèche here in Mallow that we used to have our son in, we took him out for health reasons for him and the owner turned around and when we were speaking to her she said well we did make allowances for your family unity. Now when she said it at the time I was, okay fine, we are doing the right thing by taking him out of here and putting him in another place and not a bother, I think we’re, myself and Tracy the ones who are more conscious of peoples reaction, do they think I have lied to them, you know because I haven’t said we are a couple but yeah making small little changes, I wouldn’t be surprised when Sean starts school that there might be another same-sex couple who might be putting their child in cause I remember ringing up. I rang up last year to put Sean's name on the list and the lady turned around and said you are not living in Dublin dear you can ring next year and put his name on the list whereas in Dublin when the baby is in the womb you have to put the child's name on the list to get them into the school but this is Mallow I think you could probably put the child's name down a couple of weeks beforehand. So I just said to her also look I was looking to see if we could meet the principle. I said em, Sean he has two mothers, I’m assuming I probably shouldn’t but that it was an old dear because there was a bit of stuttering and coughing and pick yourself up off the floor kind of thing, no problem whatsoever whenever you want to make an appointment that’s fine my dear, yeah, you just ring back whenever you are ready and I rang back and it was the same lady, and I said I am looking to make an appointment with the principle to come in just to explain about Sean and that he has two mothers. Oh, I was speaking to you before, come in whenever you want, there is no problem, come in whenever just call in. We haven’t gone in, no need, we think if we go in it will kind of make it a bigger thing. He is going to be bullied, he is going to be bullied anyway everyone gets picked on for something, in my eyes, kids are pass remarkable unless the parents are behind to give them a clip around the ear but eh yeah probably making small changes without even realising it, yeah.
CFP_SR00502_kay_2014;
CFP_SR00516_browne_2014;
CFP_SR00518_dee_2014;
CFP_SR00519_casey_2014;
CFP_SR00521_mccarthy_2014;
CFP_SR00532_davis_2014;
CFP_SR00534_kiely_2014;
CFP_SR00547_curtin_2015;
CFP_SR00548_mcallister_2015;
CFP_SR00549_neville_2015;
CFP_SR00555_whelan_2015;
CFP_SR00556_lynch_2015;
CFP_SR00558_doherty_2015;
CFP_SR00561_kerrigan_2015;
CFP_SR00576_odonnabhain_2016;
DC And, so when you went to UCC, wasn’t the atmosphere so of UCC wasn’t liberal, no? --
BOD It wasn’t positive at all, and like UCC actually for me, was a very challenging place. Partly I suppose because you know, say the three years in my undergraduate from the age of seventeen to twenty, I was realising more and more, this isn’t a phase that is a going away. This is how I am, and I must be the only one as well, but I knew I wasn’t, because there was an attempt and I, --
DC What was year was this now was this in UCC?
BOD I started in 78 and I think it would have been maybe about ’79 or ’80 there was an attempt to establish a gay society and that is what it was going to be called a gay soc, gay in UCC. And the University opposed it, in fact, the University wouldn’t allow it, so I don’t know what year, I, I?
DC I think it was about then because we spoke to Cathal and he?
BOD To Cathal Kerrigan?
DC Yeah, he was the auditor wasn’t he ? --
BOD Well he, well he was the auditor, well he was also that was an interesting story in itself, because that would have been either my second or third year so either 79 or 80 and he, he was elected as a, what would you call it, chairman or president, of the UCC students Union. And you know I think he got it because his dad was a TD so he was seen as a natural leader or whatever and then after he was elected president of the students Union, he came out or he let it be known that he was gay. And this caused a lot of consternation; I don’t think there is any way he would have been voted in, if that had been known prior, because, I actually I can put a date on this, I think it was 1980, or 81 because the hunger strikes were on in Northern Ireland, so it was an awful time in Ireland generally like you know the economy was down the toilet, and then you had this nothing seem to go right for the country but anyway the hunger strikes were on and as part of that, the students union, I think Cathal may have, I don’t know done something, like closed in sympathy or made some expression of sympathy in one direction or another. And there was a general assembly of the students call somebody objected to this, now I can’t remember what led up to this, but anyway so there was general assembly, in the main restaurant in UCC and Cathal stood up, and it was like prior to that he had led some kind of a student protest about fees or something like that, and there was a sit-in, in the presidents office and you know there were kind of general meetings, and he would have seen as somebody who was doing stuff that was worth doing but then he came out and there was this general meeting called, as I say, I think it was about the hunger strikes and the student response to it and he got up on the stage and he said something like oh we have a query here from somebody and the whole place erupted into laughter, and it was like, I was looking around, I was like whatever, nineteen, twenty, I was looking around, I was like seriously? Like that is the reaction, that is you know this is so funny because a queer has the said the word query? And I do remember thinking you know looking around the room and saying these are, this is Irelands future leaders, this is not a good sign, you know and to be honest I didn’t have a high opinion of my fellow students, and you know the kind of guffaws of laughter, and oh Jesus it was pathetic, but then things got on to things to discussing whatever substantive issue was, but that for me, was a kind of a real moment of kind rejection if you like by my peers even though it had nothing to do with me.