S H: Was Tshombe’s army quite a well-disciplined army by the standards of the place?
G G: Tshombe’s army was mainly controlled by mercenaries and the mercenaries came from all over the world, mercenaries from New Zealand, Australia and South America. They were mercenaries proper, mad for a fight, to fight was their lifestyle, you know. We found that they were great, they were white number one. When I went into Luena and took it over, there were Congolese army just on the edge of town and there was a Belgian in charge of it. Jack -- can’t remember his name now, Jack something. But the first night that I was there, I went over into his camp, I rang him up first on the phone, on the army line and I said who I was and that we were here to do a job to stop killing and he said ‘that’s my policy too, in taking this place we killed only a half dozen in the place’. So I went over into his camp, sitting at the table and I said for a start off ‘I have no gun on me, no gun on me, have you?’, ‘I always carry a gun’ he says, you know. I said ‘I wouldn’t like to talk to you with the gun there’, so he took the gun and he said here you have it he says, so that changed that, it went pleasantly then, we had comfort there but if any bit of trouble started I went to him or he went to me.
S H: He was a Belgian was he?
G G: A Congolese born Belgian, he was a gentleman, only a gentleman. No bother getting on with him, as I said they cleared that area now of the local Congolese tribe and kept the killing down to the minimum anyway. That was the rule.
She discusses a variety of childhood games, a strong sense of community and friendly relationships with neighbours that have lasted a lifetime.
Phil recalls the dispensary, subsequently the Grattan Street Health Centre. Inside patients waited on benches for the doctor who tended to their area of the city. She also remembers the dispensary caretaker and pharmacist who lived in the dispensary building.
Her family’s daily routine is described including going to school, family meals and shopping. Her father was very strict about timekeeping, especially when Phil and her siblings were attending dances. This timekeeping came in useful at work where lateness resulted in docked pay, and where there was no sick pay.
Rationing in the 1940s is described, including the amounts of various foodstuffs allowed per person, and how it was circumvented by a neighbour who travelled to England.
Phil speaks of the diseases which we common when she grew up including tuberculosis. She also mentions her relatives who contracted diphtheria and measles and how they were treated. Refers to the vaccines for these diseases too.
Phil would have liked to stay working in Dunlop’s after her marriage as she enjoyed working with the people there but it was not an option. Nonetheless she enjoyed being with her own children at home and watching them grow, something she thinks happens less today.
Specific pawn shops and their locations are also recalled, how they functioned and their role in helping people make ends meet.
]]>Phil grew up in a tenement on Grattan Street and worked in O’Gorman’s Hat Factory and Dunlop’s before getting married and starting a family. She gives a very detailed description of the lanes, houses, shops and families on Grattan Street and the surrounding area of the Middle Parish.
She discusses a variety of childhood games, a strong sense of community and friendly relationships with neighbours that have lasted a lifetime.
Phil recalls the dispensary, subsequently the Grattan Street Health Centre. Inside patients waited on benches for the doctor who tended to their area of the city. She also remembers the dispensary caretaker and pharmacist who lived in the dispensary building.
Her family’s daily routine is described including going to school, family meals and shopping. Her father was very strict about timekeeping, especially when Phil and her siblings were attending dances. This timekeeping came in useful at work where lateness resulted in docked pay, and where there was no sick pay.
Rationing in the 1940s is described, including the amounts of various foodstuffs allowed per person, and how it was circumvented by a neighbour who travelled to England.
Phil speaks of the diseases which we common when she grew up including tuberculosis. She also mentions her relatives who contracted diphtheria and measles and how they were treated. Refers to the vaccines for these diseases too.
Phil would have liked to stay working in Dunlop’s after her marriage as she enjoyed working with the people there but it was not an option. Nonetheless she enjoyed being with her own children at home and watching them grow, something she thinks happens less today.
Specific pawn shops and their locations are also recalled, how they functioned and their role in helping people make ends meet.
0.00.00 - 0.00.22 |
Intro |
0.00.22 - 0.02.23 |
Tenement House Growing Up- Conditions and facilities Grew up in 44 Grattan Street, a tenement house. 4 or 5 families in the house. 6 children in her family, and 6 in another family. Another family with 2. 14 children in the one house. Very happy, great neighbours. Shop underneath their house: “shop on the lap” they called it. It sold sugar, milk, tea. The people who ran the shop lived in the shop as well. A 4-storey house including the attic. The people who lived in the attic had their kitchen on the ground floor. They had no sink, there was one toilet shared by the house and one tap in the yard. There was no electricity, or gas. They used oil lamps, primus store and a coal fire. Everyone lived like that so they “didn’t know any better”. |
0.02.23 - 0.06.27 |
Neighbours, Shops and Streets on & near Grattan Street Next door in 45 Grattan Street was Gamble the tinsmith. Similar type house arrangement. 46 Grattan Street was O’Callaghan’s Pub, even though the owners got married they had their whole family living above the pub. Phil doesn’t think that arrangement could be called a tenement because the house contained all one family. Then there was Peter’s Street, and the Mechanics’ Hall where the Community Centre is now. Fr Lynch from St Peter and Paul’s was good to the poor and he gave the children of the parish a party in the Mechanics’ Hall where children were given a suitable present, eg. a doll. The children looked forward to that each Christmas. Beyond that there was the quarry all the houses previously there were gone. After the quarry there were 3 or 4 tenement houses before you came to Henry Street. Same type of houses. There was also Bobby Lloyd’s shop on the corner sold pots, pans and kitchen utensils. Then Henry Street, and across the road from it was Henrietta’s Shop run by Johno (Johnno) where they got milk or bread. There was a lane behind that with a terrace of houses. There were two pubs beyond that one called Crosses and the other was Kellehers. Beyond that was Francis Street with Randy Hourigan’s shop on the corner. Beyond that was the corner of Bachelor’s Quay where the Doll’s House was with steps up to it which was also a tenement. Around the corner was formerly Dolly Perry’s Nursing Home but was turned into tenements when Phil knew it. Then there was Grenville Place where George Boole had lived, and that area had tenements. Then you returned to Henry Street. The old part of the Mercy Hospital was also there. Then there was Moore Street, Coach Street, and back to Grattan Street. All that area was the circle in which the children were allowed to play. |
0.06.27 - 0.07.52 |
Playing Children’s Games Played tops and whips. Cat and Dog. Piggy. Skylockers. Skylockers: Long strip of crepe paper with some sand in the centre and tied with string. And put string onto the end of it and threw it up in the air and hope that it would come down again and not get caught in the electric wires. Had to make their own enjoyment not like today where people can just press buttons. Chaineys & Playing Shop Used broken coloured glass (calls it mixed spice) to play shop on the footpath. Everyone was the same and everyone joined in. People pretended to be buying some of their shop items which were the pieces of broken glass. |
0.07.52 - 0.10.49 |
More Neighbours, Shops and Streets on & near Grattan Street Phil runs through the buildings and streets on Grattan Street from her house but going in the other direction to which she did before. No 43 Grattan Street’ The People’s Dairy which had eggs, milk, buttermilk, bread. Beyond that was a wholesale place called O’Connors and he had shoes for the shops he was wholesaler for. Above his place was a tenement. No 41 Grattan Street: The M Laundries (M Laundry) with a tenement above it with 3 families. No 40 Grattan Street was the fire station and everyone knew it, and the firemen because they were local. No 39: Barber shop with tenement above it. Next was another barber: Gerry Kane, with tenements above it. Next Roddis which sold pots, pans and tin things. Next was another shop. Then Broad Street and on the other side of it was another tinsmith, another Gamble. There were 3 Gamble brothers from Grattan Street, all of them tinsmiths. After that was a quarry and the houses were gone. Across the road was the old St Francis Church. Coming back down Grattan Street from there was the Third Order Hall. Then a laundry with more tenements. Then another tinsmith. Then Moll Hog’s Mrs Hourigan, a sweet shop at the corner of Broad Lane. Then the Rambler’s Inn, a pub. When that was vacated the Franciscans took it over for their accommodation and they took over the fire station when the new church was being built. Then there was a shoemaker called Rice with tenements above it. |
0.10.49 - 0.11.35 |
The Dispensary/ Grattan Street description of the building and who lived there And then “the Quakers” or the dispensary now Grattan Street Health Centre. The Morrissy family [see CFP_SR00760_Morrissy_2019;] of the chemist on one side of the arch on the dispensary facing onto Grattan Street, and the caretaker lived on the other side, her name was Nellie Long but she was known as Mrs Healy. Morrissy family had two girls and a boy and Phil “mixed with them”. Phil’s family had no garden so they played in the courtyard in the dispensary, which she describes as “a big airy place” there was lots of space compared with where Phil lived. |
0.11.35 - 0.14.28 |
More tenements after the dispensary, continuing tour of Grattan Street. Then “Moll Murph’s” (Moll Murphy) the potato lady. Bridgie on the corner selling sweets. Then Peter Church Lane, down which there were tenements, even though they were only small houses. The McCarthy’s were the only ones to have a house. The grandmother of Terry McCarthy lived down the lane. Terry had recently died at the time of the interview. He sang with the Dixies and sang with Michael Ring junior. Then there was the graveyard [St Peter’s Cemetery] which they knew as “The Proddy Woddys”, down the lane from that was a school and St Peter’s Church which is a centre now on the North Main Street. Phil says they “never mixed with them” ie Protestants. After that was Buckley’s builder’s yard over head was the Manning’s family with some families members married. After that another tenement with Murphy’s on the ground floor and Buckley’s on the first floor. Then more people above them. After that another tenement with the Healey’s lived. Then the quarry and then Coleman’s Lane which had houses and the Kenny’s lived in the first house. Tiny houses. Back on Grattan Street there was Looney’s Shop which sold everything: butter, eggs, bread etc. Then there were two more houses Frankie Scannell lived next to Looney’s Shop and worked in the Fire Station. After that another tenement with 3 or 4 families and then it came to Adelaide Street. |
0.14.28 - 0.17.41 |
Memories of the Dispensary “But the Quakers was nice, it was an airy place” big, huge high ceilings. The garden was inside a bit. [Phil refers to the Grattan Street Health Centre/ Dispensary building as ‘the Quakers’] The big door was never open, the side door was open, but there was a bell on the door and you could ring the bell. Inside were the doctors. The dispensary had about 8 doctors, 4 on either side, in a big hall with rooms off of it. Benches outside each doctor. No appointment. Every area had its own doctor. Phil had Dr Cagney. There was a Dr Moran for another area. You got medicine on the way out from the chemist, in a little hole in the wall. If you wanted cough bottle you brought your own bottle. It wouldn’t surprise Phil if you received tablets in a matchbox. You had to queue up to get that. You’d bring your bottle with you from home. Two or three benches outside each doctor’s door. It was like one big dance hall. There was no appointment but you knew what time he would be there at. And if you had to call the doctor he would come to you at home. Dr Cagney was abrupt but a very good doctor. Mark Cagney who was a presenter on TV3 [now Virgin Media One] was related to Dr Cagney. Phil says Dr Cagney was fabulous, but abrupt: “you’d be afraid like”, “you wouldn’t ask him questions” “the glasses would be down there” [Phil puts her glasses at to the end of her nose and looks over them doing an impression of Dr Cagney.] |
0.17.41 - 0.19.00 |
LDF (Local Defence Forces) Training & Uniform The LDF (Local Defence Forces) used to train in the dispensary building [during WW2]. They had a “browny” uniform and a hat with a slit in it. Something like the Slua Muirí. They may have trained in the courtyard because there was space in “the Quakers”. They had to dress up in their uniforms. Mr Burns (or Byrne’s) who lived in Phil’s tenement was in the LDF. |
0.19.00 - 0.19.26 |
Sense of Community, Safety and Togetherness Everyone went to school together and brought each other. There was great harmony, great neighbours and a very happy childhood. It was safe to walk the streets then in a way it is less so today Phil thinks. |
0.19.26 - 0.20.47 |
Daily Routine, School, Shopping, Streetscape Had breakfast and their mother would bring them to school St Maries of the Isle. She would walk with them as far as across the street from the courthouse [on Washington Street] and after that there were no roads to cross so they could walk on their own from that point. Their mother would meet them again at that point for lunchtime to take them home. There was much less traffic than today, mostly horses and carts. The horses and carts with milk churns came to the Nolan’s next door. You brought your jug to the dairy, Nolan’s Dairy and filled it up with milk. During school they went home at 12:30 for their dinner. And her mother would meet them and bring them back at the start and end of lunch. |
0.20.47 - 0.22.07 |
Father, Work, Parenting and Strict Timekeeping Phil’s dad was working in the Munster Arcade as a draper’s porter. Everything was within walking distance. He had to wake up at 6:45 to be in work for 8:30, he was a great timekeeper. When Phil and her siblings started to go to work her father said “one call now and one call only for the morning.” (meaning that he would call/wake them once only in the morning.) They had to go to Dunlop’s for 8am. Mother would bring the younger children to school. He would do the “first shift” for the working children. He was very strict, “you wouldn’t get around him. If he said no that was it.” A good father. She thinks it was possible to say no to one’s children back then but that is no longer the case today. Her mother was a bit softer. You dare not miss your call because you didn’t get paid when you were out of work. You didn’t get paid even if you were out sick. |
0.22.07 - 0.23.22 |
No Sick Pay, Simple Remedies for Sickness Recalls a young man feeling sick at work. Someone suggested he go home but he said he couldn’t because his mother would kill him! So if you were out of work you were out of pay, so there was very little sickness as a result! “If you were sick you got your Tanora and your aspro” [Aspirin/ Disprin/ Panadol] that was the medicine they had from the chemist. |
0.23.22 - 0.27.43 |
After School, Food, Dinner, Rationing After school they would eat or go out to play. They had dinner in the middle of the day, when they came home at lunchtime from school. Might have bread and jam later- if you got jam you would be delighted. They were never hungry. Dinner would be stew. Something in a pot big enough for the whole family 6 children and the two adults 8 altogether. They didn’t have chops or steak. They had tripe and drisheen. You ate it whether you liked it or not because there was nothing else. Ration books from 1939-1945 butter was made up in 12 ounces. 16 ounces in the pound. The rations allowed 12 ounces for 2 people, 6 ounces each for a week. Tea was rationed. Mr Burns went to England (where Phil thinks the rationing may not have been as severe?!) and he was able to bring back the Van Houten’s Cocoa and his wife Mrs Burns would always share it with Phil’s family whatever they had- it was like Christmas. Doesn’t think that eggs were rationed- if you had the money you could buy them. Cannot say whether bread or milk was rationed. Sugar, tea, butter were rationed. There were vouchers for shoes issued by the Health Board. And you would get the vouchers from the Dispensary, (“The Quakers”). Phil’s mother would know about the vouchers, Phil was only a child at the time so wouldn’t know much about it. She says that if they did get vouchers they wouldn’t tell anyone because they were “very grand” she says in a joking posh accent. She says that her mother was a proud woman and “it was bred into us I’d say.” She didn’t want people to know that she was getting the vouchers, even though everyone else was in the same situation. |
0.27.43 - 0.30.53 |
Visiting the Doctor. Siblings with Diphtheria. Relatives with Measles Phil says “you’d have to be nearly dying” you’d have to have the measles or diphtheria to go to the doctor. You wouldn’t go for a cough or a cold. You’d go if there was something wrong with your ear or your eyes. Otherwise you’d get “Tanora and an aspro” and then you got better. Went into the Dispensary for her ear- doesn’t remember going to the hospital. 3 of her siblings got diphtheria. Her brother Paddy had to be hospitalised. Dr Cagney was their doctor for that. Diphtheria and whooping cough were prevalent at the time. Then injections were made available. Remembers other people in her family getting the measles, light was kept away from their eyes to prevent them going blind although Phil says she doesn’t believe that that is what would cause the blindness. But they kept sufferers in a dark room. It was a 9 day disease- 3 days coming, you had it for 3 days and then 3 days recovering from it. Measles and diphtheria were contagious but she doesn’t know about whooping cough. There was a three-in-one vaccine for those three diseases. Phil’s mother made sure that they got it from the dispensary. |
0.30.53 - 0.32.44 |
Worklife: O’Gorman’s Hat Making and Dunlop’s Worked in Dunlop’s “in the packing” and worked in O’Gorman’s making the berets the hat factory in Shandon maybe in the old butter market. Phil thinks it was a shopping centre or souvenir shop after it was O’Gorman’s Hat Factory. They started up the “berett” (beret) part of the business. Phil describes the hat as a being similar to a “Tammy-Shanto” (Tam O’Shanter) a hat worn by Scottish men, except that it did not have the tassel on it. She worked there for three years and then went to Dunlop’s because there was more money there. In the hat factory they made/knitted berets and shrunk them to the different sizes: 8 and a half, 9 and a half and 10 and half. They were knitted on a machine and put into something to shrink the wool which tightened up. Phil was involved in the setting up of that process and ended up being a supervisor. She then went to Dunlops to do the packing. |
0.32.44 - 0.38.06 |
Working in Dunlop’s, Wellington Boots, Timekeeping Discipline, Stopping Work once Married, Reflections on Staying Home to raise Children. Phil was an “inspectress” (inspector) in the packing section in Dunlop’s. She inspected the wellington boots to see if there was any flaw in them which needed to be repaired. Then they were packed into the boxes and sent out. The men made all the wellingtons and they arrived as a finished product when Phil got to inspect them. There were no women making the wellingtons. The men made them “down the dips”. Phil was inspecting the boots at the top of the heel where there might be a gap which needed to be filled in with some soft rubber. And if it wasn’t done properly she would send the boot back again for repair. She was strict because if there was something wrong with the boot the shop would send it back in any case. And you would be in trouble if it was sent back from the shop as it indicated that you had not been doing your job. “You’d be just called over the rope!”, “and if you were out sick you didn’t get paid while you were out either”. You had to clock in 8am, clock out at lunchtime, clock in after lunch, clock out going home 5pm. If you were five minutes late you were docked pay for quarter of an hour. Phil says that this discipline is good, though it is less common today: “it’s bred into you. You just accept it. You wouldn’t do it today!” That’s where the time keeping her dad had instilled came in useful. Cycled to work down the Centre park Road four times a day because they would go home for lunch- lunch was one hour. She worked for 3 years in Dunlop’s and 3 years in O’Gorman’s. She was in Dunlop’s when she got married, and she had to leave they would not allow her to work now that she was married. She would have liked to have kept working because she was “with a very happy crowd- very nice people.” Phil reflects that it would not happen today, and that men who got married were able to continue working. At the time Phil says they didn’t know any better because it was the same for everyone. Phil thinks they were better off at home with their children. Many people today would want to be at home with their children but they can’t afford it with the cost of the mortgage and other expenses. Phil feels sorry for people today who can’t be with their children- “there’s no money would pay you for that. You fit ‘em out for the world. And hope for the best after that. I know the best of them like might go astray. But at the same time you do your best.” “I thought it was lovely being at home with your children- you saw ‘em grow up” Phil says nowadays people have children before they get married. |
0.38.06 - 0.39.08 |
Diseases: TB, Tuberculosis and Recuperation There was TB at the time though none of her family got it. When you were recovering you had to go to the country to Sarsfield’s Court which was the heart of the country that time. There was Heatherside in Doneraile in North Cork which was a place for recuperating from TB you were there for 6 or 9 months until the TB was gone. Phil says thank god none of her family got TB she jokes that they “must have been well looked after with our bread and butter and our eggs.” |
0.39.08 - 0.42.55 |
Houses, landlords, house ownership, shared water pumps, class distinctions, comparative wealth, protestants, graveyard, relations between Catholics and Protestants All McCarthy family lived in the one house in Peter Church Lane though they may not have owned it. Phil says she thought they were very well off but the people who got married were still living in the family home. There was a pump at the top of the lane as they had no taps in their houses, they had to fill their buckets at the top of the lane. Doesn’t think the McCarthys who lived in the first house in the lane had a tap either. Mr Cronin owned Phil’s family’s house. He was a railway man living in Glasheen. He came every week for his rent. You made sure you had your rent. He was a very nice man. You didn’t feel they were above you. People had their rent there was no ifs and buts. He worked in the railway he had a black uniform and the railway badge. He was only an ordinary worker but he owned 44 Grattan Street. Phil has met some of his family since and says they were all ordinary people- you didn’t feel that they were above you or below you even though they might have a little bit more than you- you never felt that. The have and the have nots. Even mixed with the Nolans of the People’s Dairy. Mixed with everyone except the Protestants (‘the Proddy Woddys’). Phil thinks that there was a caretaker for St Peter’s church living down the lane. One of the bars in the railings of St Peter’s (Protestant) graveyard was bent so they were able to get in there as children “you’d be hauled over the ropes” if they were caught. They weren’t allowed in there by the Protestants but also their parents did not wasn’t them in there. “Times were different. Sure we think nothing of Protestants now.” “The Catholics and the Protestants were miles apart long go.” |
0.42.55 - 0.44.38 |
Family of the Pharmacist that lived in the Dispensary Mr Morrissy was the pharmacist that lived in the dispensary he made up the prescriptions. There was a hatch in the wall where people queued to hand in their prescription and wait for the medicine to be handed out. Never called anyone by their Christian name only as Mr, Mrs or Miss. The owners of Leaders shop on the North Main Street were known as Mr & Mrs and their daughters as Miss. Phil has been to visit one of the daughters recently and she still calls her Miss Leader. Went there for communion and confirmation clothes. Everyone got to know each other and grow up together. Miss Leader knows Phil’s family as “the Walls” she doesn’t know them by their married name. |
0.44.38- 0.48.57 |
Pawns and Pawn Shops Jones Pawn Shop, Kiely’s on Liberty Street where St Anthony’s Stores is now which is opposite St Francis. There was also a St Francis’ Stores on the corner of Sheares Street near the corner of the Courthouse which is a barber shop now. Jones Pawn shop on the North Gate Bridge, and Kiely’s may have had another shop on the North Main Street. Put in your clothes on a Monday and took them out on the Saturday. That gave you money for the week but you had to pay then on Saturday when you got the clothes out of the pawn. “They were hard times but ‘tis what everyone did.” Imagines her family used the pawn but she wasn’t told about it. You had to be back for a certain time to collect the items pawned and if you weren’t they kept the item. And that is how they had the old gold to sell. You could put something in for a month but you had to return on time to redeem it. The pawn shops “had lovely stuff” they were like antique shops they had such beautiful things in them. Lovely gold watches, rings. “You could admire them in the window but you couldn’t go in and buy them because we didn’t have the money.” They wouldn’t take shoddy stuff from you, they wouldn’t give you money for them. You could put an item in for 6 months. Everyone did it, it was nothing to be ashamed of it. As times got better the pawn shops faded out. The pawns definitely made money, Phil believes they were always very wealthy. Phil jokes that the pawn owners may have lived in Montenotte but she doesn’t know where they lived. People that had money were buying things from the pawns. Thick rings. |
0.48.57- 0.50.38 |
A Treat Sweets. On a Sunday her dad would give them a shilling between 6 children so 2 pence each after their dinner. But they didn’t dare ask for it. Once their dinner was finished on a Sunday the children were wondering “would he ever pay us?!”. He chose when it was time to pay them. There was 12 pennies in the shilling. They got a lot for their penny- ten sweets for a penny in a shop. They looked forward to it. Types of sweets: Bulls eyes, clove rock, peggy’s leg, black jacks. You could get a half a penny’s worth of sweets if you liked. There were also farthings- a quarter of a penny. |
0.50.38 - 0.53.24 |
What Happened to the Dispensary? The dispensary faded out, as people set up their own medical practices. The Health Board took it over, the doctors faded out and set up own places. Phil’s husband had to go to a doctor and the first visit was €200, though the price was less for subsequent visits. Phil often heard of €100 or €150 for a visit but thought that €200 was too much. Phil said that you didn’t have to pay going to the doctor or to the dispensary, but evens till they didn’t go unless it was necessary. The dispensary was a busy place. Doesn’t know where people who had money went to the doctor because they didn’t know anyone who had money. Lovely looking place inside, it was well done-up. It was “a big hall and you’d have rooms off of it four on that side and four on that side and you had two benches outside each door. You just sat on the bench then and took your turn, and hoped for the best.” LDF trained there certain nights a week and they had to wear uniform. |
0.53.24 - 0.54.11 |
Meets old neighbours from Grattan Street to this day, eg Byrnes, Mr Byrne was in the LDF, there were 6 in that family who live in the same house as hers. Only 2 of the Byrne’s left, 3 in Phil’s family. Still meet and socialise to talk about old times and the fun they had. They made their own fun. |
0.54.11 - 0.56.52 |
Protestant Graveyard at the back of St Peter’s They went in through the bars. “There were all tombs, like tables: you could have a meal on one of them. They were fabulous!” “There were no small headstones.” “There were headstones, but nothing poor about them” Fr Walsh from St Peter and Paul’s had the Don Bosco troupe/troop there to do plays for the stage like Father Matthew Hall. There was a place where the school was, “the Protestants were kinda fading out” and Fr Walsh set up the Don Bosco troupe and they had instruments. The Lynches were there: Pat Lynch, and Stevie. They had a hall beside the graveyard. They played instruments, sang songs and practiced there. They performed in small places in Cork, and they did Christmas shows down the lane. Fr Lynch used to do the parties for the poor children at Christmas. The parties were in the Mechanic’s Hall (now The Middle Parish Community Centre) upstairs where there was a stage. |
0.56.52 - 0.58.54 |
Mass, Religion, Dances, Strict Timekeeping They went to mass in St Francis but they were baptised in St Peter and Paul’s as it was their parish church. All her brothers were altar boys in St Peter and Pauls, and the girls were in the choir in St Francis. Her mother had the children involved in everything they were never left “go wild”. They were also in the Girl Guides or the Boy Scouts. She kept tabs on them. When they went to dances in St Francis Hall they were given five minutes to come home from the céilí on Saturday night from 8-11pm. If you went to the Arc (the Arcadia), facing the railway station it’s now apartments where the dance was 8-11 they were allowed half an hour to walk home. It was safe to walk home at that time, there would be no cars or buses after 11pm. If you weren’t there on time her mother would start walking towards them “I often met her!” says Phil. “What kept you?” her mother asked in case she had “been with the fellas”. That was the discipline that they had which they took with them and tried to instil in their own children “and do the best you can” doesn’t think it is easy to do that today. |
0.58.54 - 0.59.14 |
Christmas Party Phil doesn’t think that there was a Christmas party in the dispensary, only one in the Mechanic’s Hall [her sister Mary Mulcahy had mentioned a party in the dispensary, see CFP_SR00729_Mulcahy_2019]. |
0.59.14 - 1.02.08 |
Swimming: Outdoor Baths- Storage, Separate Days for Men and Women. Kingsley Hotel Flood They went swimming in the outdoor baths, they were not allowed in the Eglinton Baths because it was stagnant water. But they were allowed to cycle or walk up to the outdoor baths. They brought the togs and towel under their arm, and often had a picnic up there were a flask and sandwiches. Phil says she remembers the summers being lovely but that they are probably the same as they are now! Monday, Wednesday and Friday the baths were open for women, Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday was for the men. There were boxes all around the pool where you togged off. Your clothes could be stolen and you’d have to walk home in your togs. That never happened to Phil as they always had someone minding the box, or they swam in front of the box. They built a hotel [the Kinglsey] over those baths, and her husband is mad about that because they could have made a 50 metre pool there. At the time it was 50 metres one way and 50 yards in the other direction. Thinks the only 50 metre pools are in Limerick and the Aquatic Centre in Dublin. There was a flood in the Kingsley Hotel, which didn’t surprise Phil because that was where the swimming pool was with water from the Lee. |
1.02.08 - 1.05.02 |
Meeting her Husband. Anniversary. She met her husband in O’Gorman’s hat factory- but she “wasn’t going with him” then. Two or three years later she met him in the dances and “he used to dance me” and then they “became a couple and that was it. The rest is history.” They celebrated their sixtieth wedding anniversary on the previous Sunday. They didn’t do anything for the anniversary as Phil didn’t feel ready for it due to a number of family bereavements. But she had a small celebration at home. Later on she will have a bigger celebration, there will be plenty of time for that she thinks. “60 years with the one man” Phil says “I’m doing a line for 66 years!” [‘doing a line’ is Cork slang for dating someone.] Phil says that she doesn’t remember when there were Quakers there but it was always known as “the Quakers”. “but what kind the Quakers were now I have no idea.” [Interview Ends] |
She attended school in St. Maries of the Isle as most children from The Middle Parish did and Came home for lunch.
Played children’s games on the street including: skipping, piggey, release, cat and dog, hide and go seek, thunder up the alley, playing shop, playing house, runaway knock
Speaks of enjoyment and happiness in simple things even in the straightened economic circumstances that prevailed in the communities of her childhood. Discusses the prevalence of pawn shops on how they were relied on.
Recalls joy as a child when they got money for sweets as a treat.
Explains how her father like other men at the time would repair their shoes at home. Her father worked in the Munster Arcade and the family took it in turns to bring him lunch there
Discusses the differences in social class at the time
Speaks about the positive change in men’s role in housework today
Describes an annual family day trip to Youghal for swimming and a picnic.
Talks about shops and the stalls and sellers in the English Market and Coal Quay where food was bought for typical meals including stews, potatoes, tripe and drisheen, skirts and kidneys, offal, offal bones and liver.
Mentions some Christmas traditions in her family.
Remembers hearing men having a regular parting singsong while leaving the pub at night. Recounts a humorous story about musician in the Workingman’s Band pretending to play his instrument in a parade.
Remarks on parents’ strict time keeping in her childhood which was a useful skill as an adult.
Describes what dances in dancehalls were like, especially St. Francis Hall. Gives description of the rules and functioning of the dances as well as learning to dance.
Outlines common diseases in her childhood, including diphtheria which she contracted. Describes symptoms of diphtheria spending time in hospital isolation to cure diphtheria.
Remembers GP Dr Cagney in the dispensary on Grattan Street and the medicines available on site from the pharmacist including Parishes Food. Further describes the dispensary, its waiting room and how the caretaker and pharmacist lived in the building.
Talks about religious devotion, mass going, the rosary, fasting prior to holy communion and confraternity meetings in St. Francis church.
Criticises aspects Catholic religious practice such as fasting (which she describes as manmade), confession and whether children can comprehend their First Holy Communion . Humorous story of priest in the North Cathedral who gave lenient penances for confession.
Describes candy apples made and sold on Gerald Griffin Street.
]]>Mary grew up on in a tenement on Grattan Street where there was a toilet in the yard strong sense of community.
She attended school in St. Maries of the Isle as most children from The Middle Parish did and Came home for lunch.
Played children’s games on the street including: skipping, piggey, release, cat and dog, hide and go seek, thunder up the alley, playing shop, playing house, runaway knock
Speaks of enjoyment and happiness in simple things even in the straightened economic circumstances that prevailed in the communities of her childhood. Discusses the prevalence of pawn shops on how they were relied on.
Recalls joy as a child when they got money for sweets as a treat.
Explains how her father like other men at the time would repair their shoes at home. Her father worked in the Munster Arcade and the family took it in turns to bring him lunch there
Discusses the differences in social class at the time
Speaks about the positive change in men’s role in housework today
Describes an annual family day trip to Youghal for swimming and a picnic.
Talks about shops and the stalls and sellers in the English Market and Coal Quay where food was bought for typical meals including stews, potatoes, tripe and drisheen, skirts and kidneys, offal, offal bones and liver.
Mentions some Christmas traditions in her family.
Remembers hearing men having a regular parting singsong while leaving the pub at night. Recounts a humorous story about musician in the Workingman’s Band pretending to play his instrument in a parade.
Remarks on parents’ strict time keeping in her childhood which was a useful skill as an adult.
Describes what dances in dancehalls were like, especially St. Francis Hall. Gives description of the rules and functioning of the dances as well as learning to dance.
Outlines common diseases in her childhood, including diphtheria which she contracted. Describes symptoms of diphtheria spending time in hospital isolation to cure diphtheria.
Remembers GP Dr Cagney in the dispensary on Grattan Street and the medicines available on site from the pharmacist including Parishes Food. Further describes the dispensary, its waiting room and how the caretaker and pharmacist lived in the building.
Talks about religious devotion, mass going, the rosary, fasting prior to holy communion and confraternity meetings in St. Francis church.
Criticises aspects Catholic religious practice such as fasting (which she describes as manmade), confession and whether children can comprehend their First Holy Communion . Humorous story of priest in the North Cathedral who gave lenient penances for confession.
Describes candy apples made and sold on Gerald Griffin Street.
0.00.00 - 0.00.21 |
Intro |
0.00.21 - 0.02.56 |
Tenement Life and Friendships Mary grew up in 44 Grattan Street. Despite there being tenements it was a magic experience. It was one big happy family, everyone knew and helped one another. All the children played and went to school together. 6 families lived in 44 Grattan Street, all had lots of children and still friends and went to each other’s marriages. Tenements today would be apartments. All had separate entrance but one main toilet in the yard. It was tough but they knew no other experience and everyone was the same. There was one family which was a bit better off than them, but they received the same treatment from them as everyone else and never interfered with their friendship. She still knows where all her neighbours are, and for going to funerals. |
0.02.56 - 0.04.08 |
Typical Day Get up, have breakfast go to St Maries of the Isle school [Bishop Street Cork], and most of Middle Parish went to that school at the time. Came home for lunch and returned to school at 2pm. And finished school at 3pm. Then went home, did the homework and went to play on the street. There were no cars on the street but there was an occasional horse and cart. Played all their games on the street: skipping and pickey. One of Mary’s happiest time because all the children were at the same level- no one was looking down on them. |
0.04.08 - 0.09.58 |
Children’s Games Skipping and Piggey Skipping and piggey with a piggey box or a shoe polish box taken from someone’s house. Mary’s sister-in-law once did not have any chalk to draw the boxes for piggey (or picky or pickey) [hopscotch] and she broke the finger of her mother’s holy statue of the virgin Mary and used it instead of chalk. Mary describes it as innocent, there was no harm involved. The statue was on the landing. They didn’t have the money to buy chalk. Still laugh about that story today. Release- game. Boys and girls were involved. 6 or 10 children all in a square drawn on the ground. One appointed to stay in the box. Someone would shout “Release” and everyone would scatter and hide. And the person in the square had to try to find them. Cat and Dog- game Place a small stick which is pointed a both ends at the edge of a kerb. Then take a bigger stick and hit it so it would fly into the air. The person who hit their stick the furthest would win. It was simple but very enjoyable. Hide and Go Seek- game [doesn’t give a description] Thunder up the Alley- game Lighting papers and put them up the drainpipe/chute and the draught took it up the chute. Mary says they should not have done that but they did, and says that they were bored. Playing Shop and Playing House- game Used the tombstones in the Protestant graveyard [St Peter’s on Grattan Street] They put all their “googles”? [8:10-8:20] on the tombstones and their friends came to “buy” them. They used coloured glass for sweets. Played with neighbours boys and girls. Run Away Knock-game People would claim they would tell Mary’s parents about playing this game but they never did because they knew it was innocent. Reminisces about childhood with friends now. |
0.09.58 - 0.11.21 |
Compares her childhood with that of today Things that she did people might frown on eg. playing on a tombstone. Mentions having a picnic on a gravestone on holidays. Contrasts this with deliberate vandalisation of graves. Wasn’t afraid of graveyard because her mother said mother said that “The living are doing the harm the dead can’t do anything to you”. |
0.11.21 - 0.12.48 |
Food and Meals Porridge for breakfast sometimes called gruel. They had tea and could toast bread in front of fire, no toasters. Doesn’t think there were cornflakes at the time. Simple life but great happiness. “everybody was on the same level” “we had nothing but we had everything” “we had love, happiness, peace and there’s no money can buy these things”, “If you hadn’t it you did without it.” |
0.12.48- 0.15.09 |
Pawn Shops There were loan offices available but Mary said they would try to avoid those because they couldn’t afford it. There was only one man’s wages coming into the family. Pawn shops were “rampant” at the time. Suits for Sunday mass were sent to the pawn on Monday morning and on Thursday when you got your wages you would get the suit back out from the pawn. “that was living in my time”, “no shame in it” People had to survive and get food for their children, and wages were small. “We managed”. Her brother doesn’t agree with her that they were the happiest days of their lives. If they got something it was like Christmas. “We made do with what we had.” |
0.15.09 - 0.16.32 |
A Sunday Treat A penny on Sunday from her father for sweets. There was shop across from where they lived. They could get bonbons and other sweets. 4 farthings in a penny. You could get change from a penny! Thinks most people were happy at the time. |
0.16.32 - 0.18.58 |
Clothes: Repairs and Hand-me-downs Fathers would repair shoes. They would buy leather form Davisons Shop [16:40 or Davidsons?] shop on North Main Street. Used a strip of leather to put heels on shoes using a “Last” [cobbler’s last- a tool similar to the shape of a human foot used to make or repair shoes] tacked leather onto the shoe Used paring knife to remove excess leather. And then “Blackened it with the polish”. Repaired both shoe heels and soles. It was expensive to send them to the shoemaker and they couldn’t afford it. Tough times but great times. |
0.18.58 - 0.22.57 |
Father’s work in the Munster Arcade and his family bringing him Lunch Father, mother 6 children 4 boys and 2 girls lived in one floor of a 5 floor tenement. Dad worked as porter in the Munster Arcade. His job involved work around the shop and delivering parcels. Munster Arcade and Cashes were the best shops in Cork, very expensive. His children used to help their dad. Galvanised pot for tea and bread and butter brought to his work for his lunch. Everyone did something similar for lunches at the time. Couldn’t afford to buy ham. No such thing as going to a café for them. Munster Arcade was an elite shop for people who had big jobs. The staff were very lovely. |
0.22.57 - 0.29.30 |
Father having to Deliver a Tie. Attitude of the Elite. Once a woman from Montenotte or St Luke’s bought a tie for her husband and Mary’s father had to deliver the tie at 5.30pm when he was due to finish at 6pm. Father often spoke, cribbed and cursed about that incident. “That’s the way people lived at that time like. They were up there like and we were down here.” She puts this attitude down to ignorance. “They wanted to be up there looking down on us” but “We were better off because we had what they couldn’t buy: love and contentment.” Describes a world of the haves and have nots. Feels sorry for people who have to pretend that they are well-off rather than being themselves. Describes her thinking as old-fashioned. |
0.26.04 - 0.29.30 |
Change of Attitudes to Work today. Positive Change in role of men in Housework. Thinks everything is “put on a plate” for people- that everything must be done for them and people are not grateful for what they have. Thinks it’s degrading to tell people “but that’s your job.” Men were never expected to do housework or look after children in the past and now it’s changed and she is glad. Fathers would take children for walks, fishing or to matches. But everything else was done by the mother. Is glad that her children turned out well, thinks it was worth her effort raising them when she thinks back. Recalls a recent news story of a 10 year old drunk and questions the role of parents today. |
0.29.30 - 0.30.45 |
Pub Culture Then and Now Describes how when men were paid their wages they would go to the pub, and how women and children were not allowed in pubs. Believes children were not allowed in pubs then. Thinks now women are worse than men from what she hears as regards drinking behaviour. Believes this is unfair on children. |
0.30.45 - 0.33.48 |
Mother bringing them on Trips, Youghal, Swimming Describes parents as salt of the earth. Had to be home at a certain time. Could play on the street as there was very little traffic. They were taken to Fitzgerald’s Park or Lee Fields for an outing One Sunday in August would be trip to Youghal. Train to Youghal. Thousands of people like cattle there. Train stopped near the beach. And came home at 6pm in the evening. People wouldn’t believe you had been to the beach unless you got sunburned. Swam in Youghal. No bathing togs! Sandwiches on the beach. Learned to swim in Youghal. Her children went to the lifesaving clubs. It was essential that time |
0.33.48 - 0.45.47 |
Mother and Making Ends Meet: Pawns, Meals, Food Shopping Mother pawned father’s suit to make ends meet. And not ashamed of it. It was the thing to do to feed the children. Remembers her mother cooking stews and potatoes. Big bowl of potatoes in the centre of the table and everyone for themselves with butter on them! Tripe and Drisheen- good for the stomach. Beautiful dish. The dug of the lamb. Milk, onions, mushrooms, thicken with white sauce, and add potatoes. Mary still makes it as a winter dish. Her sons like it but not her daughters or daughter in laws. It’s still sold in O’Reilly’s in the English Market which was only around the corner from Grattan Street. Kidneys- skirts and kidneys. Kidneys referred to as “sheep’s pooley bags” [pooley: urine cf Sean Beecher Cork Slang: https://corkslang.com/pooley] Offal and offal bones, liver. The main dishes for the working classes. They were not able to afford steak. Today people are too squeamish about offal. English Market: The Chicken Inn. O’Reilly’s Tripe and Drisheen. Everyone had their own butcher. English Market was very basic when Mary was younger. Coal Quay was brilliant on a Saturday. Cornmarket Street used to be full of stalls, clothes, people, tinned food. Annie Punch half way down Cornmarket Street a big woman and a Cork character- “The Mother of the Coal Quay” blond, happy-go-lucky and funny person. Selling second-hand clothes at the time, although now they sell new clothes. It was very popular at Christmas. There’s snobbery about going into the Coal Quay today. Shop on corner Twomeys was popular. People would buy their Christmas Trees and decorations- Annie Punch was the main dealer for these. Saturday morning farmers would come to the city to sell their vegetables. There were also local shops that they supported. |
0.45.47 - 0.48.26 |
Christmas Might not have had a Christmas Tree but Santa Claus always came. They had chicken for Christmas dinner couldn’t afford a turkey Christmas Eve night her own children were frightened by her husband dresses as Santa Clause outside the window. They made their own fun back then. |
0.48.26 - 0.53.02 |
Singsongs and Music Singsongs after the pub which they could hear in bed a night. O’Callaghan’s Pub for the sing song. And opposite the protestant graveyard was the parting place at the end of the night. “Bill Bill” played the trumpet in The Workingman’s Band used to play it at 1am after the pub. The Workingman’s Band The Workingman’s Band played various wind instruments. They would meet in the club and march up Grattan Street and they were meant to turn left up to Patrick Street but one man turned right and people discovered he wasn’t playing his instrument! “They were very happy days” Songs at the singsong: “Mother mo Chroí”, “Kathleen Mavourneen”, “I’ll take you Home Again Kathleen”, “South of the Border- Down Mexico Way” Saturday night was the singsong and they would all make mass on Sunday morning in the Confraternity in St Peter and Paul’s Church for 8am mass or in St Francis church. Mary admired that they all stuck together. The men used take their pint but they never abused or neglected their families. |
0.53.02 - 0.57.46 |
Dancehalls and Father’s Strict Timekeeping Dances were held from 8pm-11pm in St. Francis Hall on Sheares Street. If they arrived home late her father would say: “I said 11 not five past” wouldn’t be allowed go the following week. Feels lucky that they were disciplined in this way. Her father was very strict but that all parents were like that at the time. Gresham Rooms on Maylor Street off Patrick Street was another place for dances, which their father was reluctant to let them attend as it was further away than St. Francis Hall. The Arcadia was an enjoyable place for dances. At dances the men were on one side of the room and women on the other. Women would run to the ladies toilet if an undesirable man came across the dancehall to ask them for a dance. “What a scatter!” Ladies choice: halfway through the night the women would have to ask the men for a dance. You could be reported and removed from the hall for refusing a dance. Lists some bands and singers: Victor Silvester, Clipper Carltons, Joe Mac and the Dixielanders. Terry McCarthy had died the week of this interview was a great singer. |
0.57.46 - 1.00.43 |
Funeral and Memories of Terry McCarthy and Music in Churches Beautiful funeral mass even better than that for a bishop! Large crowd at the funeral. Well organised and felt like being in heaven. When Mary was 80 her family invited Terry McCarthy to sing for her and he sang great old songs not pop music. Thinks that pop music is unsuitable to play at funerals and masses. |
1.00.43 - 1.08.51 |
Dancehalls: Rules, Learning, Locations and no Dances at Lent You couldn’t refuse a dance at a dancehall. And you couldn’t dance unless you were asked. A “legger” was a bad dancer. Types of dances: tango, quick step, foxtrot, and waltz. Learned how to dance at the dancehalls from each other and from a dancing partner at the dance. They would practice dancing at home with the sweeping brush! People would help and teach you when dancing. Some of the men were very proud of their dancing and would be showing off. Could get a glass of milk and buy tea and cake later on. Dance Halls: The Arcadia was the main ballroom in Cork was open 9pm until 2am, near Kent Station. Gresham Rooms. Dance near [Collins] Barracks and near Tivoli. Cork Boat Club on the Marina dancing finished at 2am and then they had to walk home. Once a friend Pauline from the Marsh who was an opera singer sang on the way home from the Marina but a Garda arrived and asked them to leave. Mary describes herself as a “chorus girl” rather than a solo singer! No dancing or dancehalls during Lent. So they met at the same time and went for a walk out the Lee Road. No vandalism at the time. “We made our own enjoyment” They would talk about fellas or sing while on their walk. They all went and came back as group from the Marsh/Middle Parish. |
1.08.51 - 1.12.23 |
Illnesses Measles, whooping cough, scabies, diphtheria- which 3 in her family had, Mary was the carrier. Puts it down to lack of hygiene. Diphtheria was the killer disease aside from TB. Her 3 family members were isolated in St Finbarr’s Hospital. Doctor told her mother to put her uninfected daughter into the hospital with the others to catch diphtheria and recover from it. Mary spent much of her time crying while in isolation and having to look out the window at her parents. It was sad. There were many medical tests. Recalls a neighbour who had polio. |
1.12.23 - 1.15.48
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Dispensary Grattan Street: Doctors and Medicines There were 6 doctors in the local Dispensary on Grattan Street. each area had its own doctor. People from the Marsh/ Middle Parish had Dr Cagney. Dr Cagney was very strict, very cross, “what else can I give you now beside a car?!” he said to Mary’s mother. Dr Cagney was a big man and elderly at the time and his son became a doctor too. [Dr Michael Cagney was his son, see: CFP_SR00762_OConnell_2019] Parishes Food it was like a tonic. Everyone liked the taste of it. You didn’t need a prescription for it. You brought an empty bottle to the dispensary after having visited the doctor who gave you a note with details of your required medicine and your bottle would be filled up accordingly in the dispensing unit. Cod liver oil was also recommended and was got in the Dispensary. Recalls giving her children cod liver oil with an orange to improve the taste. |
1.15.48 - 1.21.08
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Queuing in Dispensary for Doctor. Pharmacist and Caretaker Had to queue up on benches for up to 2 hours. There were 6 doctors, Dr Cagney was theirs. You’d get a prescription and then hand that to the dispensing unit on the way out. Thinks she recalls there being a Dr Fennell there as well. No appointments you just queued up. Beautiful atmosphere in there. She would know people there. Mentions 2 caretakers who lived on site. She knew is as “The Quakers” although she never met them but was aware that they had once lived there. Beautiful courtyard. Two families lived there either side of the front entrance: Morrissy’s (the dispenser) and Lucey’s or Healey’s were there caretakers. The daughters of the Morrissy’s would have been friends with Mary. [see also CFP_SR00760_Morrissy_2019;] Would see their neighbours in the waiting room. Couldn’t afford a private doctor. Different doctors there for different parts of the city. The Cagney’s were very popular, Dr Cagney’s son Michael took over. |
1.21.08 - 1.26.50 |
The Waiting Room could be very full with people. if the 6 doctors were present. Convenient living in Grattan Street as they were across the road. Very few chemists at the time. Everyone hoped they would get Parishes Food illnesses Polio and diphtheria. They weren’t afraid of the diseases, would be sometimes delighted to get sick to avoid school. Whooping cough and chickenpox were normal diseases. Treatment for whooping cough was mostly rest. There was an old saying “we got over the measles” Her brother Paddy was seriously affected by diphtheria. Symptoms of diphtheria You felt like your throat was coming up through your mouth. Thinks about how her parents coped with having children in St Finbarr’s isolation ward when they had no transport. |
1.26.50 - 1.32.00
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Christmas Party and ‘Simple Living’ of the Past There was a Christmas party for all the children with a bottle of watered down rasa/raza (raspberry cordial) and sweets. Everybody was on the same level except for a few who were slightly better off but they All going to the same school St Mary’s of the Isle. Great neighbourliness. Thinks they were very lucky and that their parents kept them “on the straight and narrow”. Says there was a lot of problems alcohol and drink but not in her family- suggests some people may not have had enough money to pay for food due to alcoholism. John O’Shea [likely the same O’Shea interviewed CFP00774] wrote a book about the “Red City” the Northside of Cork. Much of the book Mary agreed with and identifies with eg. box cars, collecting wood and making bundles out of it to sell it. “What we had to do to make a couple of bob” eg the Pawn shops. People were happy to live that way she thinks. Simple living. |
1.32.00 - 1.33.25
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Quakers and Grattan Street The Quakers did live in Grattan Street, it was their religion. Mary says her daughter-in-law is working in Grattan Street. It was a lovely building. |
1.33.25 - 1.34.19
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School behind Dispensary St. Francis Boys School was at the back of the dispensary. “Rowdy Boys College” was what it was called at the time. Thinks that there is a private school in there at the moment. |
1.34.19 - 1.35.04 |
Happiness and Gratitude Reiterates that they were the happiest days of her life games as children, made their own enjoyment and is grateful for her good parents. And feels sorry for people today who aren’t as lucky. |
1.35.04 - 1.36.31
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LDF Local Defence Force Recalls the LDF (Local Defence Force) marching and as being part of the army and they wore berets. |
1.36.31 - 0.00.00
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Attitude towards the dispensary Dr Cagney lived on Summerhill North. His son took over. Mark Cagney the radio presenter is related to that family. Dr Cagney looked after Mary’s mother Mary. Says Dr Cagney senior was abrupt but had respect for the elderly which is not always the case today, thinks that sometimes elderly people can be treated as just a number. |
1.39.20 - 1.44.48
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The Franciscans They were friendly, spiritual and gave people time. People knew the Franciscans personally they weren’t snobs and you could invite them into your house for tea. The Franciscans were out more. Many people in Grattan Street were in the choir in St Francis. They also hosted a Christmas party for the children. Recalls them being funnier and more down to earth than regular priests. Went to mass in St Francis. St Peter and Paul’s was their parish church to which they went once a month for the confraternity meeting for rosary and prayers on Monday night and the following Sunday there was a confraternity mass at 8am on Sunday. Had to be fasting from the night before to receive holy communion. They had breakfast then after mass. On some Sundays they might have a rasher and egg- their father would get priority for a good breakfast. On Sunday would do their homework, go to Fitzgerald’s Park, Lee Fields to the outdoor baths. |
1.44.48 - 1.48.22
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Religion: Fasting Rules and Rejecting Man-made Religious Rules Today Fasted before Holy Communion and for Good Friday, they didn’t eat meat which was easy as they didn’t have much meat, but it is harder now for her to abstain from meat. Doesn’t fast on Good Friday anymore, she would eat meat. She has “no scruples” anymore about eating meat on Friday. “It don’t bother me” She feels she has “did my bit” and “we did more than our bit”, they didn’t have to do what they did. She considers these rules and restrictions to be manmade laws. She decides for herself now whether to eat before communion or on Fridays. Would prefer to go back to a basic, simple religion which would include going to mass and a few prayers at night, but without all the dogmatic things and novenas. Thinks that some people in the past probably didn’t bother following all those rules. People felt they were guilty of sin and felt it and went to confession. |
1.48.22 - 1.55.12
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Confession: Unfair on Children and Story of a Lenient Priest Mary used to teach young “itinerant” or traveller children for their First Holy Communion. Brought them for their first confession to the North Cathedral. The children were speaking so loudly that she could hear their sins and recalls one of them saying “I stucked out me tongue at me nanny” and thinks it was wrong that children were made to feel guilt and sin about something so small. People would say “you’d go to hell”. She thinks this was very wrong. She thinks that she took these rules to heart and Jesus never expected people to behave as they were required to. “Everything we did was a sin” “We went to confession shaking” “We came up the hard way, we were guilty of stupid things.” And says that their parents were the same way. They were chastised at home. Kissing a boy was considered to be a sin, but she doesn’t believe it was a sin in retrospect. Priest in North Cathedral who was reputed to say “God bless you my child” in response to any confessed sin no matter how grave. There used to be queues for this Fr Hart. Says that she would know herself whether something was wrong or right. Some people took sins too far, and some people would stay away from confession for years because they were so afraid of what their sin was even though it was not that serious. People went to Fr Hart in the North Chapel/ North Cathedral because of his easier approach. |
1.55.12 - 1.56.22
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No Sex before Marriage There was “very clean living before we got married”. There was never sex involved before her marriage. And she believes this was the right way. |
1.56.22 - 2.01.24
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First Holy Communion and Children Understanding Religion Was teaching the Northside traveller children in St Mary’s Cathedral (North Cathedral) as she was in the Legion of Mary on Brown Street. Doesn’t think that children really understand their religion when they are so young so they should wait until they are older, maybe 12 years old before they make their first holy communion. Recalls her own First Holy Communion as being very serious. Got dressed and had a veil and went to a photographer on Windmill Road. Everything was so respectful and disciplined. Mary returns to discussing the funeral mass for Terry McCarthy to compare the beauty and respect of that mass. Her own communion dress was made for her, as most people did at the time. Visited all her cousins for her First Holy Communion and “got the few bob” received money from family members and went home to count it on the table. She gave her parents some of the money. Thinks today that children make about 1,000 euro on their First Holy Communion and that this has become its real purpose and meaning. The church is full for Holy Communion day but the next Sunday they are not present. Mary made her own communion in South Chapel because she was going to St Mary’s of the Isle School. |
2.01.24 - 2.07.46
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Grateful for her Happy Memories and Good Friends Recalls her happiness and friends from school. Friendship, respect for parents, teachers and friends were her memories of the past. Still in contact with those old friends. Sincere friendships and bonds. “Always keep your friends” is what Mary recommends. She meets her friends to reminisce and recall things that she might have forgotten. She would never dismiss anything that happened years ago. [02.04.10 ] “I’ll tell you something now like” when she can’t sleep things from the past come back to her and she thinks about them for hours. Feels lucky she has these lovely memories to fall back on. Very simple living and they shopped locally. |
2.05.16-2.07.55
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Shops, Sweets, Candy Apples on Gerald Griffin Street The milk emporium the daily lived second-next-door to them and they sold milk and eggs, butter. Tuckshop was underneath for sweets. There were shops on every corner, you could go into “Candy apples was a big thing at the time” There was a place near the North Cathedral on Gerald Griffin Street where a woman would stick a lollipop stick into an eating apple, cover it in sugar and put it into a holder to sell it. Mary says that she didn’t expect to have been speaking for so long. Mary asks the interviewer what time it is, he responds that it’s after 1pm. One son calls to her for dinner but he will “help himself”. |
2.07.46- 2.07.55
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Outro |
2.07.55
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Interview Ends |
Speaks of the poverty in the Middle Parish which necessitated buying goods on credit and selling clothes and jewellery to pawnshops. Mentions pawn locations. Mentions bringing empty bottles to shops to fill them with milk.
Discusses the conditions of the tenement houses in the Middle Parish including the sanitation arrangements such as outdoor toilets and the use of newspaper as toilet paper, he also mentions heating issues including timber, turf and coal which was available via a voucher scheme. Further discusses cooking, washing in the tenements including the introduction of gas and electricity. Also mentions medicines for lice and worms administered at home.
Says that boys and girls played different games separately when he was growing up. Mentions some of these games in more detail.
Discusses foods (including tripe and drisheen, pig’s tongue, Connie Dodgers) meal routines and the shops where food was purchased. Liam and his mother brought lunch to his father where he worked on the docks.
Returns to the topic of corner shops and shopping and the types of food available there, further comparing this to supermarkets today.
Speaks of the death of his mother and the change in living circumstances that this entailed.
Describes getting a vaccination in the dispensary, what it was like inside and who worked there.
Mentions fights outside bars at night time.
Talks about air raid shelters built in Cork city during the Second World War, what they looked like and where they were located.
]]>Liam Ó hUigín: Grattan Street, Healthcare, The Marsh
Liam grew up on Henry Street in The Marsh and recalls playing football on Grattan Street which was busy and full of activity with businesses, pubs, shops a fire station, barber shops and tenements. He discusses some shops and games in more detail.
Speaks of the poverty in the Middle Parish which necessitated buying goods on credit and selling clothes and jewellery to pawnshops. Mentions pawn locations. Mentions bringing empty bottles to shops to fill them with milk.
Discusses the conditions of the tenement houses in the Middle Parish including the sanitation arrangements such as outdoor toilets and the use of newspaper as toilet paper, he also mentions heating issues including timber, turf and coal which was available via a voucher scheme. Further discusses cooking, washing in the tenements including the introduction of gas and electricity. Also mentions medicines for lice and worms administered at home.
Says that boys and girls played different games separately when he was growing up. Mentions some of these games in more detail.
Discusses foods (including tripe and drisheen, pig’s tongue, Connie Dodgers) meal routines and the shops where food was purchased. Liam and his mother brought lunch to his father where he worked on the docks.
Returns to the topic of corner shops and shopping and the types of food available there, further comparing this to supermarkets today.
Speaks of the death of his mother and the change in living circumstances that this entailed.
Describes getting a vaccination in the dispensary, what it was like inside and who worked there.
Mentions fights outside bars at night time.
Talks about air raid shelters built in Cork city during the Second World War, what they looked like and where they were located.
0.00.00 - 0.00.31 |
intro |
0.00.31 - 0.02.55 |
Memories of Grattan Street and surrounding area Shops and Buildings Grattan Street was a busy street with many businesses. Most important was the fire brigade. When the new St Francis Church was being built (Broad Lane church as it was called by people in the Middle Parish) the fire brigade amalgamated with Sullivan’s Quay and the priest of Old Broad Lane church moved into the old fire brigade building while new church was being built. Children missed the excitement of the fire brigade. Very vibrant street. 6 pubs: Kellehers, Crosses, Landers, Carrols (later called the Tostal Inn), Ramble Inn (owned by Mrs Brick) two Murphys public houses near Broad Lane which runs from Grattan Street to North Main Street. Shops and sweet Shops: The Rodisses, The People’s Dairy, The M Laundries, 2 Gents Hairdressing Saloons (called barber shops): Leahy’s and Keanes. Where the Community Centre is now was called Mechanics Hall, because the mechanics had a union and meetings there. Later it was known as Matt Talbot Hall. There were lots of tenement houses in the area. [Liam’s phone rings.] |
0.03.06 - 0.05:04 |
Tenement Houses, Lanes, playing in Graveyard Where Patrick Hanely Buildings are now there were tenement houses. Liam only barely remembers them as they were being demolished in the late 1940s and early 1950s. They were derelict sites for a while, which was his playground. St Peter’s Cemetery down Peter Church Lane, playing among the headstones, and hiding or planking cigarettes. Shops: Manning’s Shops at corner of Henry Street and Grattan Street, Mrs Mullins at corner of Coleman’s Lane. From Coleman’s Lane to Adelaide Street there were 4 or 5 houses there with 4 or 5 families in each house. Remembers Shinkwin? Family, the Dineens. When they moved out they went to Gurranabraher, Ballyphehane and the suburbs in Ballincollig. |
0.05:04 - 0.06.56 |
Childhood Games and Activities Very little Traffic on the roads at the time. Liam was living in Henry Street round the corner from Grattan Street. Recalls soccer matches from one end of the street to the other and wouldn’t see a car. Friends who came from Blarney Street or Barrack Street couldn’t understand why the streets were so wide and loved it for a game of football. If a woman with a pram approached while they were playing football they would pick up the ball or if they played near the Mercy Hospital they knew that they should keep quiet without anyone telling them and Liam thinks that has changed today. Many of his friends live in Grattan Street and everyone was a happy family until there was a row and they had a battering match with “stones down the quarry”. They used to swim by the Mercy Hospital by the ladder. And then on to ‘the pipe’ up the Lee Fields and then the weir and every second day they had the Lee Baths one day for boys one for girls. Today it’s mixed. |
0.06.56 - 0.11.32 |
Poverty-Buying on Credit and using Pawn Shops Could get messages or shopping on tick or on credit. Milk, bread, quarter (pound) of cheese. There was no bottle of milk you had to bring in your own jug. If you ran out of money the shopkeeper would write it into a book and at the end of the week you could pay it off. A few people could afford not to be ‘on tick’. There were a few pawn shops on the North Main Street one near north Gate Bridge Jones, another across from Coleman’s Lane called Twomeys. There may have been more. There was one at the bottom of Shandon street owned by Jones as well. There were 18 or 19 pawn shops around the city one at bottom of Patrick’s Hill, one by fire brigade station on Sullivan’s Quay, two on Barrack Street. People would pawn clothes. Tradesmen would pawn trowels on Monday morning. Often for drink/ alcohol. Wives would pawn husband’s suit and take it back the following Saturday for going to mass. Nearly everyone used the pawn it was the forerunner to the Credit Union. If you pawned a pair of shoes for 10 shillings, you got a docket and you had to pay 11 shillings to get it back. Wives would be stressed making sure they could get the husband’s suit back in time for mass. It was a thriving business. If you didn’t claim your pawned items after a certain period it was put for sale in the window. Some people would pawn things openly. Other people would hide it under a shawl, or pretend to be pawning something for someone else. People felt ashamed. Almost everyone was scraping a living. Even some shopkeepers looked after people who may not have had enough to pay at the end of the week. At Christmas the shopkeeper would give you a present of a Christmas Cake or Christmas Candle depending on what type of customer you were. |
0.11.32 - 0.13.02 |
Work, Pawns, Showing off Wealth Liam doesn’t remember what or whether his family pawned. Liam’s dad was a docker which was paid on a daily basis and his mother was shrewd enough to put away some money every day. He knew that relations of his pawned things though. Bracelets, wedding ring, engagement ring, rarely a watch very few people had watches. Liam knew someone who went to work in Dagenham and he came back a Dagenham Yank with a different accent “a twang” and a watch. He walked into centre of Henry Street, pulled up his sleeve and pretended to be winging his watch while looking at Shandon clock tower just to show off his watch. |
0.13.02 - 0.13.46 |
Telephone Phones were also very scarce. One shop in Henry Street had a phone and there was a queue there for people wanting to use it. There was another phone booth by Vincent’s Bridge coming down Sunday’s Well. Liam remembers playing there and being afraid to go in to answer the phone. |
0.13.46 - 0.18.37 |
Tenement conditions, Emigrants, Social Comparison, Fuel Poverty Laneways around there: Philip’s Lane from Grattan Street to North Main Street. Skiddy’s Castle from Grattan Street to North Main Street. Coleman’s Lane, Peter Church Lane (now Avenue), Broad Lane (at the back of the church), all on to North Main Street from Grattan Street. Conditions were basic looking back with an outdoor toilet. One family on Henry Street had ten families with one cold tap in back yard and one toilet between them. They had to clean out every morning and bring an enamel bucket upstairs every morning. Had an inferiority complex about relations coming home from England. The relatives would be dressed up in finery but later Liam discovered they were also badly off but made the effort when coming home. The story of someone’s uncle who came back from America after 40 years and the family had moved out to the suburbs and they had a barbeque. And the uncle used the toilet inside the house. He said he used to eat inside and the toilet was outside and now it is reversed! They used newspaper instead of toilet paper. Turf and timber blocks for fuel for heating which father got going out the Straight Road. Some people got a voucher for a peck of coal which might only be a large shovel full. Some families got vouchers for free shoes like in the shop Furlongs in South Main Street (owner may have been lord mayor later) Liam wasn’t sure where the vouchers came from- maybe the Health Board. Doesn’t think there was any child benefit. Maybe the Sick Poor would provide the vouchers. They would visit people and the people would try to hide that they were calling. |
0.18.37 - 0.22.42 |
Cooking, Bathing, Hygiene and Medicines No cooking facilities only the fire. Mother would cook pot of potatoes on the fire and then transfer to the hob. 1948 no electricity in Henry Street at the time. When they got gas in mother told him not to leave kitchen door open to hide it from Liam’s grandmother who lived upstairs and was the real tenant. It wasn’t an oven it was a thing on a stand with two rings on it. Older people were afraid of being gassed. Saturday night the galvanised bath was put in front of fire with hot water and washed, and if you were the last person in the bath the water would be dirty. And then the children were lined up against the wall to get a weekly does of cod liver oil, or Brutlax, California syrup of figs, Senna? All because of worms. Some newspaper put on the table and hair combed with fine tooth comb to get rid of lice- it was an ordeal. Brutlax was like chocolate but a laxative. Milk of magnesia used as well. Given those every Saturday night to prevent you getting sick. Some of them had a terrible taste. If someone got sick taken to the dispensary. |
0.22.42 - 0.24.12 |
Children’s Games Different for boys and girls Spent much time in the derelict site where Patrick Hanley Buildings are now, used to connect to Cove street. They had battering matches with stones and they were going to the Mercy Hospital 4 or 5 times a week. They used to play chasing hiding from the nuns around the Mercy Hospital. Could bring a spinning top and hit is with a whip up and down the road without fear of traffic. Girls would tie a rope to a pole and swing around it and skipping as well. |
0.24.12 - 0.31.57 |
Food, traditions, routines. Lunch at Work Porridge for breakfast which you eat if you were given. His grandchildren now have a choice of 5 cereals. Goodie- bread and milk mixed maybe with sugar sprinkled on it. Some shops on North Main Street like Simcox or Currans Bakery you could get bread wrapped in soft tissue paper which was kept in a drawer at home for when visitors came to use for the toilet because it was better than newspaper. Potatoes and cabbage. Father loved pigs meat: pig’s heat, backbone, pig’s tail, crubeens. Liam still loves a crubeen except for the trouble of cooking of it, and it’s messy to eat. Mother was reared around Vicar Street. Barrack Street, Blarney Street, Shandon Street: that’s the way people lived because there was little Gurranabraher built and Ballyphehane wasn’t built yet. Tripe and drisheen is still a favourite, can get from Reilly’s in the market. Tripe cut into little pieces, with cornflower, onions, “white sauce”, drisheen put in later. Tripe and drisheen would be weekly. Liam loved the pig’s tongue because it was lean. Set day for each food. Liam’s dad was a docker and he would cut the ear off the pig’s head, put it in a sandwich with bread and butter, wrap in newspaper and that was his lunch. He wasn’t the only one. Thinks tripe is from sheep’s stomach. Blood in the drisheen. Connie Dodgers for Lent allowed one meal and two collations. Con Lucey said you could have a biscuit with a cup of tea as a collation. Liam thinks it was Larry McCarthy’s bakery that made a biscuit twice as big as the normal one. For Lent had to fast every Friday and couldn’t eat meat, except for people of a certain age. Religion was a big thing for people at the time. Lent didn’t bother Liam’s dad. Dockers worked hard. Where Elysian Tower is now, where the Eglinton Baths were Liam went with his mother and a bowl of soup and bread and butter and a tea towel over it. The dockers sat on the kerb eating their soup and sandwiches and they were all black with dirt no washing of hands. All the work was shovelling coal, Liam worked there for 2 days and had enough of it- nearly wanted a small shovel to fill the shovel he had. His dad was small but very wiry and strong. “They were marvellous people” |
0.31.57- 0.37.05 |
Pastimes, Shops and Opening Hours Dad spent time in the pub maybe too much. People listened to the radio or sat in front of the fire reading the newspaper. Some people with go hunting or play football or hurling. Liam plays golf now but at the time it was only for the elite doctors and solicitors. Liam’s dad never stood inside a golf club. Liam was 10 when his mother died she would offer him tripe and drisheen or a creamy cake for dinner and he would choose the cake. The corner shops are gone now because of the supermarkets. Corner shops on Henry Street were: Bode’s?, Mannings, Horrigan’s, Dermot’s on Adelaide Street. Dermot’s was first all-night shop in the city- wouldn’t be there during the day. Open from 8pm to 8am. A salesman in coca cola told Liam that Dermot lived on Pope’s Quay and owned a Morris Minor car and he drove it to Adelaide Street 7 days a week and the car was ten years old and there wasn’t 5,000 miles on it because that was all the driving he did. In Ballypheane Liam sees people carrying lots of bags after shopping in Aldi on Tory Top Road. Liam remembers going to Dermot’s for quarter pound of cheese (3 or 4 slices), half pound of tea, 2 eggs, there were no fridges so you bought and you ate them there was little storage. Dermot would put greaseproof paper over the blade and cut perfectly a few slices of cheese which had come from a timber box. Girls were interested in the box for making cots for dolls. There was no variety of cheese available just the one block. Sugar was available in quarter pounds rather than big bags. Men coming home from the pub would be sent back out to get a box of cocoa or milk from Dermot’s. There was no one on the street after 12 o’clock unlike today when there’s lots of people around after nightclubs. |
0.37.05 - 0.39.00 |
Death of Mother and Family Living Arrangements When Liam’s mom died his aunt who had 6 children moved upstairs from Liam. She has 5 daughters and 1 son and the son died of meningitis at 4 years old. Liam’s grandfather was dead. Aunt moved to grandmother in Vicar Street to look after her. Liam was going to school in Mardyke, father’s place during the day, went to grandmother’s in Vicar Street for food and washing and then back to the Marsh to sleep. He skipped school for almost 3 months (‘on the lang’) until the school wrote to his dad, who gave him a lecture. He was nearly 14 then and on the verge of leaving school anyway. |
0.39.00 - 0.44.13 |
The Dispensary now Grattan Street Health Centre, Tinsmith and Nurse Lots of cases of meningitis. Everyone in Cork used to go to the Dispensary. Everyone now in their 70s seems to remember Dr Cagney. He would give a bottle of coloured water. If you forgot your bottle you had to go to Mr Gamble the tinsmith in Grattan Street. He made ponnies, gallons, billycans. But when plastic came in there was no need for tinsmiths. Remembers getting injection or vaccination from Dr Cagney, thinks it may have been for smallpox but is not sure. He dreaded the needles for the syringes which were “like six-inch nails”. You went through a gate, into a yard and there were steps leading up to the entrance. A grey-haired woman maybe called Mrs O’Keefe. There were benches like in a church. There were hatches. You queued up for the doctor. And the hatches gave you the medicine. Other place for illness was Mercy Hospital. Recalls a midwife Nurse Anthony who called to people’s houses. Liam thought when younger than it was the midwife who brought babies on her bicycle. Aunt lived on Thomas Street (a continuation of Peter’s Street) to the back entrance of the Mercy Hospital where the “dead house” was where Liam’s mother was laid out. Remembers the Quirkes and the Horgans, Glandons?, McCarthys living there too and they all moved out when Mercy took over the whole block. Liam doesn’t remember playing around inside the Dispensary. |
0.44.13 - 0.45.35 |
Making vs Buying Lunch People who worked in Dispensary didn’t live in area. Doesn’t think people make lunches for work anymore. In modern day people go to shops like Spar for sandwiches and rolls. Wives/mothers used to make “lunches for them in the morning” for children who were working and there was a can with milk, tea and sugar. |
0.45.35 - 0.46.14 |
Families Living in Dispensary Grattan Street Thinks Mrs O’Keefe was only working there, possibly the cleaner. Mrs O’Keefe may not have been her name. Liam doesn’t think they were charging people in the dispensary. |
0.46.14 - 0.50.55 |
Attitude to health, Pubs, Fights, Market Gardens, Childhood Mischief There was no such thing as being left on a trolley. The Mercy hospital was the only hospital Liam knew, and every child in the Marsh went there at least once after a fall, hit with a stone on the head, a few stitches. Although, Liam’s aunt lost a son to meningitis. Didn’t have the medicines we have today. They were simple times but he doesn’t remember going hungry ever. Lots of pubs on Grattan Street and people were spending lots of time and money which put a burden on the family. Saturday night on Grattan Street there would usually be a fight, stripped to the waist. Bonfire night used to be a great night but no longer. No awareness of mental health. Called the Lee Road the Madhouse Road. First coloured person Liam ever saw was on Sheares Street and when they saw him they called him “Johnny the Black” and they got a chase. A chase was very important for children at the time. Fisherman on Wise’s Quay near Vincent’s Bridge the children used to throw stones in to frighten the fish away and the fisherman would chase them. Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday the market gardeners would bring their produce on horse and carts to the Coal Quay and the shopkeepers would come to buy vegetables off them. Liam and the children would steal (“knock off”) some cabbage and carrots. “Oliver Twist was only trotting after us”. |
0.50.55 - 0.51.15
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Sweets You’d get a few sweets in Woolworths from the girls who worked there, to prevent them trying to steal them! |
0.51.15 - 0.55.10
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WW2 Air Raid Shelters in Cork Three air raid shelters on Sheare’s Street, 2 in Henry Street and maybe a few in Grattan Street, at least one. O’Connell on Sheares Street was in charge of air raid shelter no 3. Fear of being bombed by German’s during World War 2 mass concrete buildings rather than underground. Liam has photograph of an air raid shelter on Patrick Street outside the Victoria Hotel and a photograph of it being knocked down. The son of the man who had the key to air raid shelter no 3 would rent out the space to old children if it was raining and they wanted to use it to play cards. In the 1940s. he lived at corner of Moore Street and Sheares Street. They were being demolished in 1948 or 1949. Air raid shelter remains inside the door of Elizabeth Fort and there are 2 on the grounds of the South Infirmary (Victoria Hospital), they’ve now been converted to stores. If you stand at bottom of South Terrace and you look up at “Rock Savage” on top of the hill at the back of the South Infirmary you can see it protruding out. Liam remembers the LDF became the FCA and that their “top coats” were good as blankets during the winter as you could put your hands into the pockets. Nearly every house had an army coat on the bed. Everyone was issued with a gas mask, Liam has one from a friend of his. Everyone had to be measured for their gas mask at the city hall or in schools. Liam’s dad wasn’t not in the LDF but his uncle was and it was his coat that was on the bed. |
0.55.10 - 0.59.24 |
Grattan Street, Dispensary, surrounding lanes, Terence MacSwiney connection Grattan Street was busy, vibrant street, always something happening there. Can’t believe seeing the traffic there now. Liam took a photograph of Prince Charles stopped in traffic outside the plaque to Patrick Hanely Buildings. The Dispensary was a historical place, there was a time when Grattan Street was a river and Meeting House Lane from North Main Street (at the side of Bradleys) was the entrance to any of the buildings on Grattan Street. Henry Street was known as Penrose Quay. On Adelaide Street at the back of where Curran’s Restaurant was there was a square called Penrose Square- after the Penrose Family that lived in Tivoli. If you come down Coleman’s Lane from Grattan Street and enter North Main Street up on the wall there are four plaques for the building where Terence MacSwiney was born. People think he was born in Blackpool because they confuse him with Tomas MacCurtain. Terence married one of the Murphy brewers. Liam is very interested in Terence MacSwiney and loves talking about him, maybe because he comes from the same area in Cork. |
0.59.24 - 0.59.41
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Outro. Interview Ends. |