CFP_SR00565_osullivan_2015; CFP_SR00566_fahy_2015; CFP_SR00569_fahy_2016; CFP_SR00570_steele_2016; CFP_SR00574_jones_2016; CFP_SR00577_fahy_2016; CFP_SR00581_osullivan_2016; CFP_SR00583_johnson_2016; CFP_SR00589_lysaght_2016; CFP_SR00590_varian_2016; CFP_SR00595_Jones_2016; CFP_SR00610_McCarthy_2017; CFP_SR00611_Buckley_2017:
Published material related to the collection:
Moore, Michael (2016) ‘A Tale of Two Masons’, The Archive Journal, Vol 20: 8-10.
0.00.00 - 0.07.10 |
London-Irish identity, the Hogan name and link, researching their family tree, meeting their lineage Pat grew up in London, his family left Cork in the 1880s They brought their history with them- an oral history They talked about Cork occasionally. One side of his family were masons- so it was easier to go back as they passed the trades down the generations His great, great grandfather was Jeremiah Hogan- a great Cork name- there was mention of Spike Island, he was one of 22 children- which shocked Pat Pat’s mother was a keen amateur genealogist Pat’s father is from Co Meath Pat went on holidays in Ireland as a kid every summer “so, we had this kind of wonderful schizophrenic duality, so we’d come home to Ireland”- England was Babylon They went to Dublin, the link with Cork had been lost- Pat’s mother had a yearning to find out about her side of the family- Hogan is a Tipperary name They were brought to Cork as teenagers as his mother did her research in the local libraries- they were Hogan’s and masons At that time, there was a local historian living out in Cobh, his name was Liam Hogan, a stonemason- the librarian told them this. Pat remembers going up to a house in Cobh with his mother Eileen Devaney [phonetic sounding] to look for Liam O’Hogan. This man came out and he looked very dramatic, very rugged. Pat’s mother got emotional when she saw him “she knew she was in the right house” as he looked like her grandfather, “like meeting a ghost” And she told him what she knew- he was a great writer and contributor to the Journal of the Cork historical and archaeological society JCAHS, he is dead since. He was the right man, he knew his history- he had heard of the Hogan’s who went to London, “We don’t know what happened to them” So, they had found the connection. He was able to sit down and tell her what he knew (6m09s) Since then, they have done a lot of research and they found out the Hogan’s have been stonemasons as far back as 1619, up to today, there is still a Hogan mason in Midleton [Cork] The idea that stonemasonry is just another trade is wrong. They are itinerant masons- they travel around The Hogan name is from Tipperary, Limerick and Clare- they came down to Cork in the mid-eighteenth century because there was a huge building boom. They followed the work. |
0.07.11 - 0.11.21 |
Father Edmond Hogan, the Jesuit Archive, finding the family tree Liam Hogan told them about Father Edmond’s papers- he is a relative of theirs, he was a great historian in the 19th century He taught James Joyce, he taught Douglas Hyde Irish. Pat did not know of him. All of father Edmond Hogan’s brothers got together and took mortgages out so Edmond could train as a priest- he was bright- he became a very noted scholar who wrote countless books- he was a key figure in the revival of the Irish wolfhound. He wrote books on Ireland in the 16th century, he was a quasi-genius, he was great friends with Eoin McNeill. He was part of the language revival in the 1880s. They found out all his papers were in the Jesuit archive in Dublin- they were allowed have a look at them but there was no order on them and there was a room full of them. “literally walls of filing boxes” This was in the 1990s, since then they have been put into order They spent 3 days there- they found cigarette packets with notes on them- he was an inveterate note taker and historian His famous book is called ‘Onomasticon Goedelicum’ [Latin phrase, 9m00s a history of all the place names in Irish] He did research that is still been used Pat and his mother were looking for stuff on the family tree- Pat was getting bored- finally on the last box at the bottom was his hand-written account of the family tree- [nice quote- 10m] And it was all there- they were masons going way back- they came down from Tipperary One of them built Ballyedmond House in Midleton They would work on the house- become stewards and stay there The mason’s sons would then move on to another place So, there were Hogan’s all over East Cork and they were all masons They built up a picture bit by bit When Pat looks at a book, he goes to the back to see if there is any Hogan’s in it- if yes they are his (lineage) |
0.11.22 - 0.14.47 |
What his ancestors built, speaking to masons, understanding life as a mason historicially, Eddie Buckley a mason, Clongowes and father Edmond Hogan Pat is not a mason he grew up in London Pat does not think he would be up to it but he has 400 hundred years of ancestry that helped build St Colemans cathedral (Cobh), the stores in Kinsale, Mitchelstown College, Galtee Castle (Tipperary) [demolished 1942] and the list goes on around Cork. Portumna Castle (Galway), Birr Castle (Offaly) It is wonderful to read about it but you have to speak to masons today to realise that masonry was a hard, hard job- there was no romance or glamour- you were building a castle, but by god you worked hard for your money Pat rediscovered this connection with his family and found that some of them were still masons but not working in the way that their ancestors had. Eddie Buckley a cousin of Pat’s was able to tell him about been a stonemason and how hard it was and he said it’s no surprise that a lot of masons took to the drink- one the incessant hard work and also the stone dust Stone carving was probably a bit easier and more creative In those days, there was no health and safety- not an easy job and you’re lugging stone and exposed to the elements It was easy to see why established masons tried to get their sons to college Father Edmond Hogan went to Clongowes in the 1830s since then nearly all of the Hogan’s from that branch of the family have gone to Clongowes So, the masonry has nearly died out in Pat’s family One guy left in Midleton Pat believes that because some of the older masons did not get the money or respect they deserved they don’t value the importance of it So, when younger people talk about the art and craft of masonry they look at you really strange- “if you were out on scaffolding 8 hours a day you wouldn’t be romantic about it” |
0.14.48 - 0.19.27 |
Stucadoors, Charles Fort, Kinsale, research, tribalism and identity in London, proud of his heritage, the migrant experience Pat’s father was a decorative plasterer- he could do cornices, centre pieces he trained as what was called a stucadoor [plastering technique developed in ancient Greece] He had no great love for it because he didn’t get well paid and wasn’t appreciated for it Pat gets a great buzz from going around Cork looking at buildings that his family helped build If you work in an office you don’t leave much behind but Pat can go to Charles Fort in Kinsale and look at the stores and his great, great, great, great, great grandfather designed and built them They were the main trunk of the family They have hooked up and become friends and helped each other with research Pat’s mother was like a dog with a bone because “the Irish who go away hold on to it” When you go to the maelstrom of London you have to identify yourself very quickly- it’s tribal- (nice quote-16m32s) Pat grew up in the East End of London and there were lots of immigrants- Italians, Polish. German, West Indian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistanis- all living in very small geographical area They had their own identities, cultures- sometimes they clashed, but not a lot They were different to the Irish in America who developed a rose-tinted view of home- they were able to come home every year- pat knew the realities of Ireland in the 1970s and 80s Pat knew it was different to England and he had a primal urge to be in Ireland- now he lives here He has gradually made his way down to Cork It is silly to be proud of your family tree because there are all dead, it is you that’s important because you are still alive “you can’t trade off of dead men’s triumphs” 18m09s It’s a pleasure to look at their work but also to realise that Pat didn’t have to do it Patrick felt that it was schizophrenic growing up Irish in London- he would be called Irish because of his name, Patrick Cooney He grew up with a dual identity There were more pluses, than problems |
0.19.28 - 0.22.52 |
The Cork Steam Packets, how the Irish settled in London, Irish names and culture in London, the Irish stays with you, and his love for Cork, They found that the Cork steam packets [British Ferry Company] went out of Penrose Quay and they landed in Wapping just below tower bridge in the port of London and the Irish jumped off the ship on both sides of the Thames and settled and slowly moved inland After WWII and the blitz, the Irish settled in Essex [London], you will find a lot of Cork descendants there The Cork steam packet was the ship that most people took from Munster if they wanted to go to England All the names from the school roll when pat was young were Munster names- it was a virtual cork Pat lives in Dublin for years, but never felt at home there Cork people remind him of home- slightly garrulous, slightly confrontational, can’t stop talking, The people Pat grew up with in London were sometimes four or five generations away from Munster but it was there Pat found himself drifting back home Pat likes Cork, it has a lot of potential There is a great gra for the city- they are chippy about the city For a small place, there are attractive buildings All of these churches perched on hills, because of the marshes Pat’s mother used to come to Cork on the Inishfallen- she said coming to cork was extraordinary, like coming down into a field- cork was more continental than Dublin which was a bridges [phonetic sounding] city, in many respects Pat is getting to know more about his family He can go and touch buildings that his ancestors worked on and that pleases him |
0.22.53 - 0.27.02 |
The pull to come home, what his ancestors did, Spike Island ledgers, IRB, research in London National Archives, Jeremiah Hogan’s 21 siblings, large Irish families and high death rates Pat feels there might be a genetic impulse to come home His family came to Cork in 1690 which isn’t a long time in history But there is a pull absolutely The real Ireland is outside Dublin Pat does not have a need to go do masonry Pat is a creative person He does not think he would be up to it That generation were tough- they were wiry Pat’s family were employed by the board of ordinance to fortify Spike Island and they were employed by the British crown- Pat is a republican and wasn’t happy about this The other side of Pat’s family were all members of the IRB [Irish Republican Brotherhood] But if you have 21 kids to feed its understandable They never knew about Spike Island until they did research In London in the national archives- Pat found out that when the British left Ireland in 1922 they took everything with them- and Pat found the ledgers from the board of ordinance who looked after all the fortifications Pat found in the ledgers that his great, great, great grandfather lived in Spike Island with 2 young children He was there with a few other masons- onsite masons There were 2 kids born on the island On father Edmonds parchment, the family tree, they found all these weird notes- he put down Jeremiah Hogan and said he had 21 brothers and sisters- few lived beyond the age of 15, one went into the water and brought out a disease that killed 5 of them in a week- could be cholera Pat understands now why his great, great grannie was pregnant from 18 to 48 almost, they had to because of natural wastage From the family tree, Pat saw that a lot of the children would be dead by 4 and 5 (27m quote) Out of 21 kids, you might end up with 5 |
0.27.03 - 0.28.56 |
Irish history, the Hogan’s in East Cork, Fota Island, the Smith-Barry’s Pat’s family story is very similar to many, it’s the Irish story, you can follow it true Some go into the priesthood, some go into the British army 27m10s and if they had any land, the youngest one gets the land Pat learned about Irish history and Irish history is very traumatic and has repercussions through to today The Hogan’s were very well got with the Smith-Barry’s who were very well got in East Cork- Barryscourt Hospital They worked on Fota [Island in Cork Harbour] when it was been extended- it was a hunting lodge- some of his family lived on Fota in the Crescent [a part of Fota Island] and down by the jetty near Bellvelly It was a bit like ‘Downton abbey’ [TV series]- they got jobs on the estate building the estate walls and things like that- this went thru until the 1940s, there was still Hogan’s there Major Bell had it after the Smith-Barry’s They were there till the 50s Stonemasonry started to die out around that time then because buildings were engineered rather than built |
0.28.57 - 0.33.07 |
Preserving our heritage, contemporary buildings, bad architecture and planning, Italian attitudes culture What Jim Fahy is doing now is important- recording stuff The Irish are good at rescuing things- Irish music was on its last legs until people went around and recorded all the old people playing music- looking back these people were pioneers It’s the same with masonry- it’s an art it’s permanent- there will be a time when its cherished There are stone buildings 200 hundred years old Will some of the newer buildings be around in 50 years? Pat doesn’t think so “we build with a built-in obsolescence” Pat believes that Jim Fahy needs to go to the city council and demand that buildings need to have a certain amount of masonry in them “why do buildings today look like IKEA stores?” “why can’t we have classical stone buildings?” “in Ireland we have a problem with visual illiteracy” In Ireland things have to be in the brutalist style which Pat believes doesn’t work The Elysium building doesn’t work Classical, palladium, gothic, neo-gothic, arts and crafts buildings in cork, which work because the architect and builders were looking at how they were going to fit in to the streetscape or the landscape, whereas now with ego driven projects all they see is their building and that’s why they look ridiculous The courthouse on Washington street is still a really attractive building Pat spends a lot of time in Italy and they are surrounded by Renaissance buildings- they are proud and protect them Ireland is on the edge of things so- “we want to be seen to be up to date but its actually passé” Pat argues with architects, why can’t we have a modern classical building? They have no answer for it because they can’t do it- we need crafts people who can do it It’s important for stonemasons and stucadoors to keep the craft alive because it will come back |
0.33.08 - 0.37.17 |
Andrew Smith a modern stucadoor, small-scale planning, heritage, enjoying your craft, David shaw Smith and the television series ‘Hands’, Ken Thomson a stone carver in Ballycotton Pat’s friend is probably Irelands best stucadoor, he is an expert on 18th century plaster work- Andrew Smith- smith and Henderson- the finest stucadoor in Ireland Pat worked for him on a 18th century house in Henrietta street Dublin- Pat did it for a year and enjoyed it- It’s a duty to people today to at least record what was there How feasible are large scale buildings environmentally? Small scale mix of buildings more amenable to a good quality of life- more environmentally sound Pat has found that progress is always greed dressed up as progress Be sceptical of what is seen as modern- tomorrow modern is old fashioned Pat has no grá to be a mason- he respects it You have to love your job- if not, your life is incrementally damaged- and you end up working in the civil service- soulless Pat’s father loved talking about his job- crafts people do tend to enjoy their work more In Cork more books being written- more progress David Shaw-Smith did a great series in the 80s called ‘Hands’ 36m43s he went out and filmed all these people when nobody was interested- he filmed Ken Thomson a stone carver- he’s only recently retired, lives in Ballycotton An incredible series |
0.37.18 - 0.40.31 |
Irish emigrant identity, travelling Irish, effects of emigration on Ireland: brain drain Pat is very happy he was born the son of an Irish emigrant- it sharpened him- had to work out who he was A lot of 2nd, 3rd generation Irish very unsure of who they are [A woman walks into room and Pat speaks to her very briefly] Pat has travelled a lot and there are always Irish people in the most curious of places- the wandering Irish Ireland is poorly served by our government- the substitutes bench is on the field because of emigration- the best left With mass-emigration you lose your best Look around the world and you will see Irish names in the top positions in music, acting, science, engineering, politics- the descendants of Irish emigrants “Nobody has the courage to bring home the diaspora to sort out the mess of a country we’ve got” |
0.40.32 - 0.47.53 |
The Save Moore Street campaign, London battalion of IRB, the Easter Rising, a 15-year campaign, high court judge, Spitalfield London, have to fight for your culture Pat was angry that a historic part of Dublin was going to be flattened for a shopping centre Will they ever understand that they’ve got something special here, an almost intact 18th century city There was wholesale demolition during the 80s Moore street really touched Pat, because his family were republicans involved in the war of independence in the London battalion smuggling guns over to Ireland He thought it was sinful that such a historic spot where Pearse and Connolly evacuated from the GPO [General Post Office] was going to be levelled for a shopping centre- you couldn’t make it up The campaign lasted 15 years and we won, unlike most heritage campaigns in Ireland They lost Wood Quay, Glen of the Downs, lost the Corrib, lost Tara- Moore street most successful campaign We ended up in the high court in the centenary year with relatives of 1916 rising against the Irish government- you couldn’t make it up The media had no interest in us The judge saw it and made the right decision Moore street has a vibrant market People all over Ireland like open markets But planners like large scale things because they bring in rates and that’s all their interested in it It was “David versus Goliath” I knew we’d win because we would go to the end- chain ourselves to the buildings if we had too Pat was involved in a campaign in London to save Spitalfield market Pat always found in committee’s and campaigns there’d be irish people Pat believes the Irish inside Ireland are not great fighters, but outside they are It’s the emigrant experience They are now involved in the redesign of the Moore Street area in an appropriate manner Yesterday was the 1st anniversary of the judgement in the high court Ireland has a great country with heritage and culture, but at local and national level the government are an enemy- who see Ireland as their own personal resource to exploit Everybody can do something to help our country We had 700 years of domination and we still held on to our identity, music and culture. We can’t possibly sell it in the last 40 years to something as sad as global capitalism Identity is always changing and forming but coming back to Cork I can see more clearly where an awful lot of me comes from |
0.47.54 - 0.53.27 |
London battalion IRB, British army, smuggling guns from London to Ireland, the execution of Field Marshall Sir Henry Wilson by Reggie dunne and Joseph O’Sullivan, Michael Collins in London. The treaty and negotiations. The London Irish battalion in the GPO and refusing to surrender Pat is very proud of his republican roots- London battalion The Irish volunteers were founded in 1913- so many Irish in Britain that battalions were set up in cities- Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow and two in London Pat’s grandfather and two grand-uncles were members of the London battalion- 1913-1914 The other thing is most of Pat’s family were in the British army but so was James Connolly- they went there for three square meals a day- terrible poverty in London at the time They all ended up in the quartermaster store in charge of the guns- most Irish who joined, eventually ended up in the quartermaster stores- many books mention this- Tom Barry’s ‘Guerrilla Days’ in Ireland, academic tomes- say there were smuggling lines between Britain and Ireland- by boat Guns were been brought into the country from all over the place Pat’s grandfather smuggled revolvers- his mother tells the story that where they lived in London was regularly raided- the warning call would go out- the baby’s were in deep prams and grenades, mills bombs and webley’s [a revolver] would be put in under the babies- the babies would then be shaken to make them cry- the cops would leave the baby alone The priests would bring guns back, because a man of the cloth would never be searched They got small arms, not big arms They had intelligence and spies One of the big actions was they executed field marshal Sir Henry Wilson on Michael Collins orders- he was shot in Eaton Place [London] and Reggie [Reginald] Dunne and [Joseph O] Sullivan were hung for it Pat’s grandfather knew them very well Pat’s father told him that they met Michael Collins in London in a secret meeting to see what way the London battalion would go on the treaty negotiations because they were tossing a coin over the treaty basically- the battalion were split- they agreed for the sake of the unity they wouldn’t split- so after the civil war followed- they weren’t involved in that as much The Irish in London and Britain were very involved in the war of independence There is a connection to Moore street, the last people to surrender there were the London Irish battalion- about 60 or 70 came over from Britain and ended up in the GPO guys from Scotland, Manchester and London When Pearse said to surrender, they refused because the British would hear their accents and they would be executed- be seen as deserters from the western front Pearse and Clarke couldn’t convince them- eventually Sean Mac Diarmada convinced them that they wouldn’t be shot and they weren’t The last people to down to arms were from Pat’s parish Stories like this are coming out now and we are better for it |
0.53.28 - 0.54.44 |
The centenary and Fine Gael’s response, Moore Street The government didn’t want to celebrate the centenary- Fine Gael did not want to, but were forced into it by the relatives of the rising who went ballistic when they saw the original government video on it A road show went around to gauge people’s reactions and they didn’t realise that all over the country people wanted to celebrate the rising So, it’s been a good year “Moore street has been a big part of my life for 15 years and I am pleased that it has ended victoriously” |
0.54.55 - 1.00.27 |
The similarities between Cork people and the Londoners, Cork is a great city, the Irish always want to come home, Pat will try out Cork for a while Pat suddenly felt at home in Cork- Cork people remind him so much of east-enders in London Same pride, same “chippiness” It’s great to see people looking after the city Things have to die, grow, be reborn but in an organic way Change should be incrementa,l not forced Global capitalism forces everything- you lose things Dublin has lost something Cork is a great city, lots of people are saying this Pat hopes he doesn’t have to get involved in any campaigns Where you live is really important Pat grew up in a block of flats in London and it is not good for your soul - Seeing green fields and wildlife is good for you Pat appreciates what he has now Going abroad you can see what’s great about home Of all the ethnic groups, the Irish always want to go home at some point [A man, Finbarr, comes into the room to feed his dog out in the conservatory] The only group that talked about going home were the Irish More of Pat’s contemporaries are heading back now You reach a stage where you question where you’re from and you come back and realise that actually you fit here Britain is changing a lot, very tolerant society, but tumultuous “Do you ever fit in? I can’t answer that but for the moment Cork will do” INTERVIEW ENDS |
S.H: Yeah, can you mm tell me something about the games you played as a child?
N.H: Well when we moved to Listowel in 1967 I think it was mm we were notorious we were the wild Hennessey bunch that blew into town one day and caused a storm until the day we left, what we used to get up to was ah there was a castle in the square in Listowel, and we used to climb that, get up to the top of it, and there was a gooseberry tree on the top of it and used to eat the gooseberries off it you know. We used to ride horses, we used to ah play games with this goat we had. You’d put down your head forward, and the goat would put down its head forward and run at you, you know, and you’d grab it by the horns and push and it would push you know? We’d ah … we used to… cowboys and Indians and all those things you know that children did back in those days you know.
S.H: Can you remember any older sort of traditional childhood sort of games like ah .. variants of ‘four square’ or skipping ‘hopscotch’ boys don’t usually skip but ‘hopscotch’ or marbles or?
N.H: Yeah, marbles conkers, ah the spinning top a piece of wood shaped sort of like a cone, and you have a piece of stick with its ring off it and you whip it and it spins, spinning top you know. And yoyos’ we had, but one of my earliest memories would have been in mm in Longford or Laisebrooke?? in the square in Laisebrooke playing conkers during the school break you know.
S.H: Yeah.
N.H: There was a lot of conker trees around the area you know, but ah .. yeah we had a lot of creatures as pets when we were growing up you know, we’d tortoises we’d hedgehogs, we’d foxes, we’d a hawk we’d ah…
S.H: How did you come to have a hawk?
N.H: We found - It fell out of a nest, and we had a crow as well.
S.H: Gee, at the same time?
N.H: Different periods.
S.H: What sort of hawk was it do you know?
N.H: Just an ordinary hawk.
S.H: Yeah.
N.H: I think we
S.H: Was it friendly or?
N.H: We used to feed it you know. I think we let it go, let it into the wilds. But we had a crow, Jacko was its name, and mm it would squawk every time it was hungry and it would be in the garage you know, and we’d go out and feed it bread and milk you know, but ah Jacko – I mean, he used to sit on my mother’s shoulder while she was reading a book you know, and he would try and read, try and communicate with us you know. Or when we had the foxes we used to play with the foxes.
S.H: How did you come to have foxes?
N.H: Ah my father brought them home one day from Tarbert, when Tarbert Power Station was being built you know, and ah he brought it home, thought that we might like it and its name was Rooey it was a vixen.
S.H: What was its name?
N.H: Rooey.
S.H: Rooey, yeah.
N.H: It means red one, red one and mm Rooey, we used to play with it and, it used to eat liver that is all it would do. We eventually gave it to Eamonn De Butleir who had a wild sanctuary up in Dublin somewhere – up in Wicklow. He came down from Wicklow one afternoon while we were at school, but he waited until we came home from school and then he took the fox and let it free in his reserve you know.
S.H: Obviously, he thought it was nice to tell you kids it was going, he didn’t just want to take it.
N.H: We had got a dog then you see, we fell in love with this pup called Sancha, and ah my mother rather than put the fox down we decided to give it to Eamonn De Butleir and let him look after it you know.
S.H: Would the dog and fox not have been able to co-exist?
N.H: Not really I wouldn’t have thought so because the fox would have been frightened of the dog you know, even though the dog would have been a pup you know.
S.H: Yeah.
N.H: They wouldn’t have really got on because the dog would have got older much quicker, and its instinct for a dog to hunt foxes anyway you know.
C OC: So, just to kick off there, you might tell me your name.
M OC Michael O’Callaghan. I’m from Togher. My mother, my father and myself left Cork in 1960. I was only three. To go to London. Big adventure. I have strong memories of sailing on the old black and white Inishfallen from the quays below because it seemed a very very sad thing. Not like today, travelling. As the ship was leaving all the people would start singing, and the song still haunts me. They sing the song ‘now is the hour when we must say goodbye’. So, you could have a couple of hundred people because a lot of people getting on that boat weren’t going away for a weekend. They might never come back. And there used to be people wailing and crying on the ship. And my mother and me father, me mother especially, would be crying a lot. But the ship would go slowly down, and you could drive down Low Road in both directions, and there’d be cars following it down all the way. And then you had a long sea journey to Fishguard. You’d leave. I’d memories of leaving Cork about six o’clock in the evening, arriving in Fishguard in the middle of the night. A long wait then in the cold, and the smell of fish in Fishguard and someone told me it’s dead mullet. I know now, and also Bovril. If you mention to a lot of people Bovril, it seemed it was all you could get there. And I still to this day can’t. If I smell Bovril I can’t take it. Then you’d have a five or six hour journey by train from Fishguard to Paddington. And the other way round then, we’d come home every summer. My Grandmother lived in Glenabbey Street, and she hadn’t electric light. This was in the sixties. She actually hadn’t electricity, and I can still remember the gas lamps, the lamps would be lit. She’d cook on the fire. And I can still remember the food, and at night they’d just sit there talking for hours. I’d have been seven, eight, nine or ten. But I used to love it. With my grandfather and my grandmother. The house is still in Glenabbey Street. Now it’s rented accommodation. There’s students in there. But that black Inisfallen. I bought a photograph of it from The Examiner. It was a memory I’ll never forget that song and the smell of Bovril.
C OC That’s so vivid. Do you remember how the song went.
M OC No. You can get it on the internet if you Google it. Now is the hour when we must say goodbye. Soon you will be sailing far across the sea. If you google it you’ll get the words. I don’t know. It’s an American/Irish singer but if you play that song I guarantee to anyone in their fifties and older, they’ll think of that. But then I can also remember we’d come home in the summer, the long train journey from Paddington to Fishguard, then you’d get on the ship but in the morning she’d pass Roche’s Point about seven o’clock in the morning, and I can remember coming up the river. I can remember passing the marina, in the morning, and people waving at the boat. That was a happy time. My mother would be up doing her make up, I can remember and all that. And the boat would come up to where the river splits there by, I don’t know the name of the quay there
C OC The Port of Cork.
M OC The Cork building. Just before that the boat would actually do a turn to be facing out to sea again. If I remember rightly we used to arrive on a Sunday morning but then she’d sail Sunday evening again. But it was a long slow journey. The boat stank as far as I was concerned. It was a floating pub. But they used to keep cattle underneath as well. And I’d be sick the day before we travelled with worry, and I’d be sick the day after we arrived having travelled. But the memories of that ship and that song. Get the song from Google, ‘Now is the hour when we have to say goodbye’. But it was like a coffin ship going off. And also arriving. When you arrived the Customs would go through your case. And a big lump of chalk would be plastered on the case, that was to get you through the security. If the chalk was on your case you were OK. So that’s me.
C OC Wow. Jeepers. Thanks for that. That’s really vivid.
M OC It was a long way away at that stage. We used to ring home, now me mother used to write letters to my grandfather. And he’d write back and the letters would come religiously every week from him. Maybe once a fortnight from my mother. Not as quick. Things got a bit better then, we’d ring from a phone box to a phone box on the North side to my aunt, via operators. We’d be shoving in two bob bits and all the rest of it. I can remember he’d ring on a Friday night. There could be a queue at the phone box, or there could be a queue at the phone box in Farranree. So they’d be waiting at both ends. You’d ring and someone else would pick up the phone. London was a long way away then.
C OC Can you remember the first time that you came back for the summer and your impressions of Cork then after having been in London?
M OC Yeah. I didn’t want to go back to London. Cause we were playing with relations in the North side and relations in Ballyphehane. In London it was a rather built up area where we lived. So we came back here. And I’d be gone in the morning and dragged in late at night, having been out playing football, kick the can, which I’d never heard of, and all those things. So I used to be depressed going back to London. It was just outdoor, always sunny. Red lemonade, I’d never seen. White vinegar I’d never seen. And Taytos. Rasa was a phrase. My Grandad used to take me to the pub. I didn’t realise he was getting it for nothing. You know, it was for half nothing that I’d be drinking Rasa. Also getting I’d be hanging my parents now [inaudible phrase], getting the bus to Crosshaven. We’d go to Crosshaven with my cousins. They’d go into the pub and myself and my cousins clung to the wall outside the pub, in the corner of Crosshaven for hours. We set our DNAs on that wall definitely. And then we’d come home in the evening and for years we used to talk about Crosshaven. And I’d say ‘sure there’s nothing there’. I didn’t think there was anything in Crosshaven. I just thought it was a square. Honestly. So in later years I brought my own children down there. I found Graball Bay [sounds like], and all those. But the bus to Crosshaven for the pub. Everyone did it. Stayed in the pub all day, and then got the bus back. That was the adventure. Also when I used to come I was the rich person from England. Choc Ices. My cousins still joke about Mick coming home with the Choc Ices. We’d go to the shop and I’d have money for Choc Ices, which they wouldn’t have got. We had some money but the lads here didn’t have as much. And two other things, I’ll bore you to tears. My aunts had televisions with slot machines in them. You’d put money in and that’s how they paid the rental on the television. The television shops in town. They couldn’t afford the rent on the telly. So there was a slot machine on the telly same as a ESB machine. So you’d be watching it, and the next thing the money would go and the telly would go. So someone would run looking for a shilling or two bob to put into it. You’d get an hour or two hours out of it. And the last one was they used to put blue plastic over the television trying to pretend it was colour. Honestly.
C OC Brilliant!
M OC I thought it was a wind up. But they did. But the slot machines for the television, I remember that now, just come back to me there. You might get an hour for a shilling or something. But in the middle of something it would go. I thought it was prehistoric. I’d colour telly in London at this stage. I thought it was totally prehistoric. And always one channel or two channels. But I loved it back here. I didn’t want to go home. We came home for good in ’74. Thank God. I was seventeen.
C OC What was that like now, arriving back from London at seventeen?
M OC That was a little bit of a shocker because I’d settled down in London. I’d lots of friends there, but I settled down very quickly. And I took my father, [pause], we’d a big birthday recently. My daughter was twenty. I was fifty and my dad was eighty and I took him back to London for the first time since ’74. And we stayed near where we lived. Where we lived now is in the Kensington area. At the time it was a little bit run down, now it’s all millionaires there. It was just amazing to see it. But I had it for a few days. And I took my children there a few years before that to see where I went to school. School in London. It was nice to see it. It was nice to come home. London is grand for a week. But, everywhere we went in London was Irish, Irish, Irish. We’d often have Cork people staying in our house for a night or two, that had come over. And the Irish clubs, the Irish pubs full of Cork people. Everywhere. They were everywhere. That’s my memories of London now.
C OC Well, thank you very much. Excellent.
End of Interview
His mother was not allowed to keep her job in the public service once she married, she took up oil painting and cared for her mother.
Describes his school days and recollects specific teachers. Outlines his engineering education and his emigration to England for work. Lived on Eton High Street and attended Tottenham Hotspur football matches. Influenced by stories of older relatives who regretted remaining in England he decided to return to Ireland.
Discusses how he began hillwalking as a hobby through photography. Explains what’s involved in leading a hill walk and how he wrote a number of hillwalking guidebooks. Mentions various walking routes in Ireland. Admires France’s rights for walkers, which are more favourable than the situation in Ireland.
Recalls starting work in Grattan Street medical centre and the various disciplines that operated there over the years. Discusses his duties as porter. Talks about the happy history of the medical centre building including its Quaker origins.
Remembers social events with fellow Grattan Street staff including Christmas parties. Mentions memorable events and incidents in Grattan Street including the floods of 2013.
]]>Sean grew up by the Lough in Cork city and spent holidays in Ardmore. Describes his family home and memories of his grandparents. Talks about playing football and the game Red Rover as a child.
His mother was not allowed to keep her job in the public service once she married, she took up oil painting and cared for her mother.
Describes his school days and recollects specific teachers. Outlines his engineering education and his emigration to England for work. Lived on Eton High Street and attended Tottenham Hotspur football matches. Influenced by stories of older relatives who regretted remaining in England he decided to return to Ireland.
Discusses how he began hillwalking as a hobby through photography. Explains what’s involved in leading a hill walk and how he wrote a number of hillwalking guidebooks. Mentions various walking routes in Ireland. Admires France’s rights for walkers, which are more favourable than the situation in Ireland.
Recalls starting work in Grattan Street medical centre and the various disciplines that operated there over the years. Discusses his duties as porter. Talks about the happy history of the medical centre building including its Quaker origins.
Remembers social events with fellow Grattan Street staff including Christmas parties. Mentions memorable events and incidents in Grattan Street including the floods of 2013.
0.00.00 - 0.03.24 |
Family and Early Memories Born in the Bons (Bon Secours Hospital). Lived all life in Cork except 4 years. Holidays in early teens to Ardmore fishing for mackerel. Brothers Paddy & Brian. Grew up on Hartlands Road by the Lough. Played football in the field by Lough or fished. Primary school St Joseph’s on Mardyke- socially mixed school with people from Northside, Southside and the country farmers’ children. Pres (PBC Presentation Brothers College) was a paid school beside them with uniforms. Got a lift to school with dad in the morning. Hour and a half for lunch so walked home for lunch. Mother stayed at home wasn’t allowed to work in public service once married. Secondary School CSN Coláiste Spioraid Naoimh Bishopstown for 3 years. Then the Regional College for junior engineering certificate course. Went on to an electrical engineering course and qualified in the early 1980s not many jobs available. Went to England using qualifications a little. Got job as porter in Grattan Street with Southern Health Board now HSE. |
0.03.24 - 0.06.08 |
Family House and Grandparents Small house 2 rooms in front, 2 behind, middle bathroom and flat-roofed kitchen at the back. Shared bedroom with 2 brothers. When 13 years old his grandmother came to live with them. In his pre-teen years his grandmother knitted a lot of their jumpers “long in the backs to keep your ass warm”. Grandmother was independent woman, went to Liverpool when 16, worked as telephonist. She married teacher in Cork & lived on Redemption Road. Stocky woman. Big motherly figure. People didn’t take exercise back then. Pleasant personality. Family visited her house on Sundays and she had “curranty bread”, Lucozade or orangeade. Parents would bring grandmother to mass. Remembers grandfather as very stern and always spoke Irish. |
0.06.08 - 0.08.30 |
Games Football across the Lough. Describes Red Rover game. In winter played football on the road which was a steep hill. Only one car on the road picked two neighbours’ gates to play football. Broke a few windows. Good natured nothing untoward. About 12 children on the road at the time. Still living on the road he grew up on now only about 4 children. There could have been 20 children at one time. The football wasn’t taken that seriously it was only killing time. |
0.08.30 - 0.09.30 |
Women banned from Work in Public Service after Marriage Mother took up painting with local oil painters in Cork for about 15 years. And then looked after her mother. There was no nursing homes. |
0.09.30 - 0.11.23 |
School and Teachers Br Albius teacher keen on science. Taught them Latin in primary school. Taught about condensation on the glass. Teacher used a sheet in the schoolyard to show how a sail on a ship works. Br John was favourite teacher because he played guitar. Sean thinks that life puts you in a certain career and if you’re happy you stay with it. You can “what-if” your life away but there is no point. |
0.11.23 - 0.13.18 |
Time in England Worked in factory doing electronic assembly. Lived in flat on Eton High Street with a few lads. Went to Tottenham Hotspur matches at night with stadium lit up- magical experience. Enjoyed England but after 2 years decided he didn’t want to grow old in England and if you stay too long you won’t be able to get away from it. Saw a generation of aunts and uncles who never came back to Ireland and regretted it. Likes the outdoors and hillwalking. Hardest thing about England- you can’t get away from people. Population of 55 million. |
0.13.18 - 0.15.20 |
Hillwalking Hobby through Photography Got into hillwalking through photography and landscape photography. But hillwalking took over. Cork Backpackers hillwalking club for about 20 years. Dungarvan Comeraghs, Galtees, Carrantuohill, Beara peninsula. Can only do that in rural places of England. Club meets on grand parade and divides into groups for different walks. Get coffee before the walk and a meal after the walk. |
0.15.20 - 0.17.46 |
What it takes to lead a walk They wouldn’t let you lead the walks. He went on the committee in order to put himself forward for leading walks. Kevin O’Flynn and from Ken Sumtana Malaysia taught people how to lead walks. Teaching people how to navigate and read maps. Started leading as coleader, then leader with supervision and it became clear he had an aptitude for it. Good hillwalker has a degree of fitness. Choose a leader with he same fitness level as you. The walk is only as fast as the slowest walker. About 5 hill walking clubs in Cork. Mountaineers, Cork Backpackers, Bishopstown is big club, Blarney and a few others. They dovetail into cycling as well. |
0.17.46 - 0.22.50 |
Writing books on Hillwalking Hill-walked on his own to research the books. Came across a slim guidebook on hillwalking and decided he could do it. So he wrote one on Mangerton. Impossible to get anyone to publish it so went to publish it himself but you end up with 3000 books in cardboard boxes. A guy in west Cork distributed small publishers’ books. Over 10 years he wrote 5 guide books. They made him a few thousand euro a year. Reeks, West Cork, County Cork. Books included: routes, maps, route descriptions, a little bit of history. Size of a letter about 50 pages and can fit in the pocket. Books became dated because places on the routes could no longer be accessed. “Trails Ireland” can be accessed on the internet. In France you cannot own up to the cliff face so the whole coastal area can be walked in France. It’s not the same here in Ireland. While in Ireland the old railway lines are being reopened more should be done to open the coastal area. Putting up barbed wire to stop people crossing the land. Success of Dungarvan Greenway Westport-Achill Cycle way Athlone to Mullingar route. Thinks we need more of that in the world we live in. If motorways can be built requiring land being baought up then it can be done. Mahon walk on Sundays Success of Ballincollig park or the lough for recreation. Common ownership will be taken up |
0.22.50 - 0.25.50 |
First impressions of Grattan Street & services over the years 26 years old when started in Grattan Street. Thought it would be a job for 6 months but stayed 35 years! Not much happening when he started. There were Public Health Nurses and Community Welfare Officers looked after people waiting for their dole or social welfare or interim payments. Initially Community Welfare gave out beds and blankets in Grattan Street but eventually it was thought this was demeaning and gave vouchers instead. Sean counts at least 15 different services run from Grattan Street during his time there: Public health nurses. Dental (came from City Hall), Schools Nurses (came from City Hall) Speech therapy, Social Health Education Project (SHEP) Psychology department, community workers, home help, podiatry, eye clinics, admin, Area medical officer European health insurance scheme, ophthalmic department, community welfare and Public Health Nurses At the moment [April 2019] 6 services remaining. Speech Therapy has moved to Western Road. Psychology moved to Blackpool. Most moved to bigger premises. Community Welfare moved to department of social welfare about 8 years ago. Grattan Street at any one time it had about 50 staff, 50 telephone extensions. Work for about 5 years and move on. Turnover of staff. About 150 or move staff have been Started as the youngest lemon and now is the “elder lemon” |
0.25.50 - 0.27.45
|
Duties as the porter Opening & closing the building. Liaise with maintenance Male presence for security. What doesn’t come under someone else’s job description he does. Things that could never been written in a job description. Busy in mornings, quieter in the afternoons. Doing the post. |
0.27.45 - 0.30.55 |
Unique Atmosphere of Grattan Street Grattan Street has so many disciplines where people interact in a “friendship kind of way”. Big enough to have heart. But not so big that it becomes impersonal. Building itself is 150 years old. Happy story attached to the building wasn’t prison or psychiatric hospital. William Penn who founded Pennsylvania allegedly stayed a night in the building. Ghost of Grattan Street Becky Haughton ghost is supposed to haunt the place. Supposed to see her on the stairs at dusk. SHEP used to have meetings in Grattan Street at night. They heard a strange noise at night. Masonry had fallen onto filing cabinet in the store. |
0.30.55 - 0.33.16 |
Grattan Street Social life and Changes Files and vaccination records, nurses dressings kept in the stores. Grattan Street has heart, spirit and character. Happy, friendly building. Party at Christmas. 30 people. A nurse might play the violin, or poetry, or make an alcoholic punch or home baking. When he came here first was in his 20s and the nurses were in their 30s the nurses were into home baking these days it was more shop bought. |
0.33.16 - 0.34.55
|
Stories: Theft and Letters Dentist in Grattan Street had an expensive “flash” car which was stolen. It had been used in robbery and recovered. SHEP started in half the canteen Psychologists were in Grattan Street who were sending two letters to the same address one to each of the Once broken into and one of the doctors felt it was a reflection on the state of his room when Sean couldn’t tell whether it had been broken into or not. |
0.34.55 - 0.35.20 |
Podiatrist Appointments No one was turning up for podiatrist appointments. Secretary had forgot to send out appointments. |
0.35.20 - 0.37.44 |
Events in Grattan Street Medical Centre Flooding 2013 had to move vaccines. They arrived in small car and they had to do two runs and ploughed there way through 2 and a half feet of water. Couldn’t stand the smell of perfume. Spray their room with perfume so she wouldn’t come in. AMO had gotten locked in by mistake by the cleaners. The fire brigade had to get her out with a ladder European health insurance card. Someone came saying he was annoyed his name was spelled wrong. They could only put 22 characters for the surname and he had 23, his name ended in a double-Z they had dropped a single Z and he accepted their explanation. |
0.37.44 - 0.41.46
|
Unusual Incidents in Grattan Street Medical Centre Bank robbery on North Main Street. Bad was thrown over the back gate. Sean found 2 bags of money. Guards came and replaced them with dummy bags, Roches Stores bags. Man came into the building trying to steal things. He was confronted and left his mobile and found him through his mother’s number. Bad weather a few years ago. All the pipes had burst when Sean turned on the boiler. Front portion of the building flooded. Elderly man in his dressing gown and slippers outside podiatry. He had wandered down from the Mercy. |
0.41.46 - 0.43.01
|
Patients Dying in the Building Two patients came to get their toenails done and they died. He was in his 90s and 5 years later almost to the day another man died and they cleared the building. |
0.43.01 - 0.44.14 |
Story of child driving a car Guy in car waiting for his dad. Spoon stuck in the ignition to start the car. Gone like a rally driver he was no more than 14. |
0.44.14 - 0.44.52
|
Birds in Building. Arrives early 2 male blackbirds chased a female blackbird into the building. Arrives half an hour before the staff. Turned off lights and opened the big double doors. |
0.44.52 - 0.47.25
|
Story of Heating Failure in Grattan Street & Organisational Error Heating failed in the building. No heating for about 5 days. 5 different staff phoned 5 seniors in 5 different departments and they all authorised 6 heaters for the building so that 30 heaters arrived. Thirty separate 3 kilowatt heaters were plugged in totalling 900 kilowatts which is far more than the building could take. Awful burning smell came from the waiting area, emanating from the fuse. Sean plugged out all the heaters for safety. In response to this he thinks that: ‘People don’t understand how their decisions interact with others’. |
0.47.25 - 0.49.37
|
Poor Maintenance of Grattan Street Building In 34 years the building has been painted twice, three times at most. Windows are never cleaned. Rent a building in city how much would it cost and what would the maintenance for that be? You’d need to get a new car serviced. Never any more spent on the place. Plan was to install ten new windows a year. After the first ten no more were installed. Attic never insulated. Roof leaks. |
0.49.37 - 0.51.00 |
Change to the medical services with close of Grattan Street Services are moving out. Shame to lose a public building in the city centre. Every institution needs a city centre presence. New primary care centre 250 staff. Like wing of CUH. It will be great when it gets going. |
0.51.00 - 0.53.40
|
Quakers, features of the building and staff routine Understands the Quakers gave building for use by HSE. Would like to see the building used as a city centre museum. People in wheelchairs can access the building without help. Getting a taxi for someone from the building is very fast. Staff use local supermarket for their coffees. Sean holds post & letters for the school during summer and Christmas. The type of bed available from the Community Welfare was very basic back in 1984, it was like an army bed. |
0.53.40 - 0.54.12
|
Podiatry & Diabetes Couldn’t tell us about nursing. Thinks the podiatrist sees more diabetics these days than previously. |
0.54.12 - 0.55.26
|
Reflection & Outlook on Life You can “what if” your life away. Married now. 50 when he got married. His 50s are his happiest decade. Everyone needs someone to share their life with. [interviewer states the year as 2009 but should have said 2019] Interview Ends |
Recalls as a teenager being told by a doctor who was smoking to give up smoking. Comments on how widespread smoking was at the time. Humorous story about asking a Garda for a cigarette.
Story of Cork character ‘Kick the Bucket’, a young man who was convinced he was going to die very soon but lived to be 81.
Speaks of playing on the streets of The Marsh and The Middle Parish as a child and how they would go to the Mercy Hospital if they were injured playing football. Describes rival groups of boys from Grattan Street and the Coal Quay having fruit throwing fights.
Describes how as a child he used a skull from a tomb in St Peter’s Cemetery to use as a Jack O Lantern. Returns to the topic of underage smoking and acquiring cigarettes from adults.
Explains a form of recycling where he collected empty glass bottles to return to a shop in exchange for money. He used the money for cigarettes and matches or to pay for a cinema ticket. Recalls Dermot’s Cake shop on Adelaide Street.
Talks about his passion for fishing, avoiding the bailiff and selling his fish catch to local fish and chip shops. Tells of his fishing rob being confiscated by the bailiff and retrieving it.
Mentions children taking sweets from a shop on Sheares Street without paying for them.
Discusses income inequality and buying clothes on the Coal Quay. Explains how he made floats for fishing from wine bottle corks made by his dad’s friend for Woodford Bourne’s on Sheares Street.
Reflects on crime and safety in the city centre and tells the story of a house being burgled where the owner shouted out that he had nothing worth stealing.
Outlines some long standing Grattan Street residents’ concerns about their neighbourhood today including students, student parties, students drinking on the street, cark parks, bus routes, student accommodation, Edel House, increased traffic, methodone clinics, community Gardaí and the HSE’s use of buildings in the city centre.
Remembers Shawlies on the Coal Quay, including his own grandmother. Describes the products sold there and farmers bringing vegetables with dirt on them by horse and cart. Mentions Ryan’s Pub on North Main Street and how the farmers might frequent it.
Speaks of the simple food and meals he ate, and how his shoes were pawned but bought back in time to wear for mass.
Recalls the violence and fear of St Joseph’s School and wanting to leave to go fishing. Speaks of his preference for St. Francis School where he was not beaten and learned a lot. Outlines getting food and cocoa in the morning at school. Tells the story of a father confronting a Presentation Brother for an excessive beating to his son.
Talks about food and his mother making bread and mentions other foods and treats from his grandmother.
Speaks about fatal diseases in the past including mumps. To receive medication in the dispensary you had to bring your own empty bottle.
Speaks about the work of the Middle Parish Community Centre especially in relation to addiction. This prompts Joe to speak of his own story of dealing with his alcohol addiction, the risks alcohol posed to his health, liver disease, his desire to see his grandchildren grow up and his happiness now he has successfully remained sober for many years.
Mentions the Barrett family who lived in the dispensary building.
]]>Joe recalls the dispensary on Grattan Street, its waiting room and the names of the doctors who worked there. He describes in detail his visit there to get a vaccination as a child. Discusses medical treatments administered at home by his mother including those for fleas and head lice.
Recalls as a teenager being told by a doctor who was smoking to give up smoking. Comments on how widespread smoking was at the time. Humorous story about asking a Garda for a cigarette.
Story of Cork character ‘Kick the Bucket’, a young man who was convinced he was going to die very soon but lived to be 81.
Speaks of playing on the streets of The Marsh and The Middle Parish as a child and how they would go to the Mercy Hospital if they were injured playing football. Describes rival groups of boys from Grattan Street and the Coal Quay having fruit throwing fights.
Describes how as a child he used a skull from a tomb in St Peter’s Cemetery to use as a Jack O Lantern. Returns to the topic of underage smoking and acquiring cigarettes from adults.
Explains a form of recycling where he collected empty glass bottles to return to a shop in exchange for money. He used the money for cigarettes and matches or to pay for a cinema ticket. Recalls Dermot’s Cake shop on Adelaide Street.
Talks about his passion for fishing, avoiding the bailiff and selling his fish catch to local fish and chip shops. Tells of his fishing rob being confiscated by the bailiff and retrieving it.
Mentions children taking sweets from a shop on Sheares Street without paying for them.
Discusses income inequality and buying clothes on the Coal Quay. Explains how he made floats for fishing from wine bottle corks made by his dad’s friend for Woodford Bourne’s on Sheares Street.
Reflects on crime and safety in the city centre and tells the story of a house being burgled where the owner shouted out that he had nothing worth stealing.
Outlines some long standing Grattan Street residents’ concerns about their neighbourhood today including students, student parties, students drinking on the street, cark parks, bus routes, student accommodation, Edel House, increased traffic, methodone clinics, community Gardaí and the HSE’s use of buildings in the city centre.
Remembers Shawlies on the Coal Quay, including his own grandmother. Describes the products sold there and farmers bringing vegetables with dirt on them by horse and cart. Mentions Ryan’s Pub on North Main Street and how the farmers might frequent it.
Speaks of the simple food and meals he ate, and how his shoes were pawned but bought back in time to wear for mass.
Recalls the violence and fear of St Joseph’s School and wanting to leave to go fishing. Speaks of his preference for St. Francis School where he was not beaten and learned a lot. Outlines getting food and cocoa in the morning at school. Tells the story of a father confronting a Presentation Brother for an excessive beating to his son.
Talks about food and his mother making bread and mentions other foods and treats from his grandmother.
Speaks about fatal diseases in the past including mumps. To receive medication in the dispensary you had to bring your own empty bottle.
Speaks about the work of the Middle Parish Community Centre especially in relation to addiction. This prompts Joe to speak of his own story of dealing with his alcohol addiction, the risks alcohol posed to his health, liver disease, his desire to see his grandchildren grow up and his happiness now he has successfully remained sober for many years.
Mentions the Barrett family who lived in the dispensary building.
0.00.00 - 0.00.30 |
Intro |
0.00.30 - 0.01.41 |
Memories of dispensary and Vaccination Dispensary was a beautiful looking building especially as it was surrounded by tenements. Barrett family were caretakers. 6 GPs worked there and remembers 4: Dr Galvin (low-sized woman), Dr Jimmy Young (who played hurling for Cork), Dr Kiely (male), Dr Michael Cagney his family’s GP, delivered him and his brother at home. Waiting room was like church seats. His mother usually brought with him. |
0.01.41 - 0.06.06 |
Vaccination in the Dispensary Grattan Street Vaccination: his dad brought him. Front door was in Grattan Street. Queue of boys outside. None of the boys who came out looked happy, they all suffered from the fear and pain. Joe was about 8 years old. Instrument doctor had was like a branding iron for cattle or a bolt. The needle was the size of a nail. Dad held his wrist and arm very tight. His dad brought him for ice-cream afterwards. When he was 12 there was another round of vaccines and he was determined not to take them until he discovered they were like sugar cubes not needles. |
0.06.06 - 0.09.24 |
Fleas and Head Lice treatment Everyone had fleas and headlice, but some of his friends still deny that they had it possibly out of shame. Everyone left their doors open, as they had nothing to rob. Dads got paid on Friday night and there was a small party at the weekend- raspberry and crisps in the pub. Went to the dispensary to get prescription for head lice. When mother cut his hair she put it in newspaper and threw it in fire and you could hear fleas and lice banging. “Scabs and bits of hair here and there” You could see dead fleas and lice on the back of other boys collars in school. DDT “defestor” Mrs Shinnick? Pharmacist gave them a green bottle which smelled. The liquid burned the scalp. Fine tooth comb to get the dead lice out. The smell would last for hours. And in school the following day people would recognise it and know you had had lice. |
0.09.24 - 0.10.53 |
Smoking Doctor trying to get him to give up smoking Dr Jimmy Young (or maybe Dr Cagney) moved to a private clinic on the South Mall. Joe was smoking as a young teenager. If he was caught a neighbour would kick him in the arse before telling his dad. His dad never hit him but would put his hands on his belt which was sufficient threat. Dad brought him to Dr Young to be told how bad smoking was. And while he was telling Joe to give up cigarettes he was smoking a Woodbine cigarette at the time. People smoked everywhere except church. |
0.10.53 - 0.12.07 |
Dared to ask Garda for a cigarette Doesn’t drink or smoke now. Had to take a dare when asked by a friend. Friend dared him to ask a Garda for a cigarette. Garda kicked him in the arse. Walked like John Wayne for a week! |
0.12.07 - 0.15.30 |
‘Kick the Bucket’: hypochondriac ‘character’ in Dispensary A head cold was serious at times. Practically impossible to get a house call from a doctor. So they would be bundled up in sheets like a mummy and transported to the dispensary. Mother saw a man in the waiting room nicknamed “Kick the Bucket” because he was a hypochondriac convinced he was going to die soon. Joe saw him as he got older and went to the doctor on his own. Kick the Bucket died at 81 and the news spread faster than the fire at the Opera House or Jennings. |
0.15.30 - 0.15.46 |
End of Dispensary After a while doctors got their private surgeries and A&Es accident and Emergencies opened. The dispensary sort of dwindled out. |
0.15.46 - 0.16.42 |
Grattan Street injuries Playing as Children Lots of memories from around Grattan Street area. Born on Devonshire Street near Pat MacDonald Paints, and there was a big population living in the Marsh. More than 100 children playing on the streets around Peter Street and Grattan Street. Alleyways, where car parks are now, there were their soccer pitches. They counted 120 potholes in their soccer pitch, big enough to fall knee deep into. If you fell in you could twist an ankle or break a leg. Friends would lift you out of the way of the pitch but you had to crawl to the Mercy Hospital yourself because the match had to go on. |
0.16.42 - 0.18.59 |
Battles and fights with rival groups of boys Their rivals were the Coal Quay boys. Saturday evening they would raid the Coal Quay for the left over rotten fruit. They had timber palettes set up as a barricade and after 12 o’clock mass on a Sunday the Coal Quay boys would come. (had to go to mass otherwise someone would tell the Presentation Brother or you parents. Joe did miss a few) Battering match would start. Rotten apples. Soggy bananas. Tomatoes were the best. No stones. Whoever ran out of ammunition first you had to run away. 30 guys running down Coleman’s Lane would be easy targets. But the Marsh lads could spread out on Grattan Street. |
0.18.59 - 0.24.29 |
Halloween skull as Jack O Lantern from Tomb in St Peters There was no real fighting just wrestling. Maybe some fighting with firsts. No kicking someone in the head. Boxing with community centre against Mitchelstown. Joe couldn’t hit a small boxer and they had to stop the fight. Around the same time it was Halloween in St Peter’s graveyard all the tombs and headstones were in the centre not along the side. They were able to get into the tombs and went in with a match and were surrounded by bones in the dark. Didn’t need pumpkins they decided they would get a nightlight scandal, buy matches from Mr Barry and get a skull from the tomb and scares girls. Heard something moving in the tomb one night. His dad was a postman and he had a big torch but Joe could never find it when he wanted it. Always bring cigarette butts out of the tomb. Used safety pins to get the most out of the cigarette. |
0.24.29 - 0.26.24
|
Cigarettes and getting money from empty bottles 8pm in the evening and at 8am the doctors and surgeons left or arrived at the Mercy Hospital, and they could’ve smoked in their offices at the time. Doctors sometimes threw away a cigar butt. Sometimes the children followed a doctor for 10 minutes and he might not throw the butt away! As they got older they went to Mr Barry’s shop and could get 2 fags (cigarettes) and a match for an empty bottle of Lucozade, which they could get from the Mercy Hospital. All the glasses were returnable at the time. They decided to take more bottles. 2 bottles would get you 4p four pence and you could go to the pictures (cinema) for 3p thruppence (three pence) and have money left over for cigarettes and a match. Tanora bottles from Jennings. |
0.26.24 - 0.31.03 |
Fishing for Money trouble with the Bailiff Dermot’s Cake shop on Adelaide street best cakes and creamy milks straight form the cow. Decided to take up poaching to get some money. Lots of mullet and salmon in the river at the time. Was rarely caught poaching because he could plank (hide) them at home within a few seconds. Sold them to Burns on Douglas Street, the Uptown Grill in MacCurtain Street (which must have lasted 60 years) the woman there said to bring over any more because they’re so fresh the blood is still hot in them! Mr Hurley the bailiff caught him occasionally and took his fishing rod and reported him to his mother and tell her to send Joe over to collect his fishing rod. He’d ask which rod was his in a room full of confiscated rods. Joe’s was the cheapest “Black Prince” but he’d get a more expensive one. Needed money for cinema and chips. Best two chippers: Hayden’s on Shandon Street and Kiely’s on Maylor Street. Wrapped in newspaper, lots of vinegar and salt. Tastiest part was to squeeze the vinegar out of the newspaper even with the dye running in it. Slogging apples down the Mardyke selling to woman Dooney Dawney. |
0.31.03 - 0.34.24
|
Money & Sweets: Selling fishing Rod & tricking shopkeeper Sold the rod for money to an angler and bought a cheap rod again. He was a well-known angler on the Lee. Good anglers and fairly good anglers but luck plays a big part. Ahern sisters owned a shop a Sheare Street (Sheares Street). Penny bars and sweets ‘blackjack’, ‘cough no more’, ‘macaroon’ (Erinmore tobacco). Asked for penny bar that was up high so she would have to climb up and they would take a bar from the lower shelf. They once took it in turns to ask how much a bar was even thought they were all a penny and she eventually banned them all for life from the shop. It took them a year or two to get back on good terms. |
0.34.24- 0.35.55
|
Safety of City in Past, Making floats for fishing, Social & Income Inequality Never any trouble when growing up. Joe’s 2nd eldest son is 38 lives on Northside, daughter on the southside and eldest son still lives in the Marsh. His children would say the Marsh was a great place to rear children. Where the Woolshed Bar [on Sheares Street] is now used to be Woodford Bournes the wine makers. And on the corner Paddy worked the guillotine to make ‘the corkies’ corks for the wine bottles for Woodford Bournes. Joe’s dad was a friend of Paddy & “they used have a drink together”. Joe would go to Paddy for bits of cork to make floats for fishing. He would bore a hole through the cork for the fishing line. “so we got everything for nothing”. Even got clothes from Coal Quay for very little. Some of his friends deny that they ever wore clothes from the Coal Quay. Joe thinks there was no in between either you were rich or you were poor. |
0.35.55 - 0.36.45
|
Story of Man with nothing worth stealing Remembers old man second-next-door-neighbour and there was someone prowling around his house. He had nothing worth stealing only a transistor radio which everyone had so there was no one to sell it to. This neighbour shouted out “come on in if you want something. I have nothing and you’re welcome to half of that!” |
0.36.45 - 0.38.50 |
The Marsh today: Families vs Students Joe’s son Michael would still love to raise his children in the Marsh area, even with the volume of traffic. Joe thinks the Grattan Street area cannot take anymore offices or traffic. He says that the HSE have many of the buildings. Joe is lucky as he owns his own house. Married a Coal Quay girl Breda Dineen. There are plans to build student accommodation with 350 rooms on Grattan Street where the Munster Furniture and Hardware was. Joe says he will sell up and leave the parish if that is built. It will break his heart to do it but he can’t put up with any more. Talks about Edel House being discussed on the radio. And thinks there were a lot of “undesirables” in there. In recent times they were warned to behave themselves on the streets and Joe thinks that they do. He thinks that as well as genuine cases there are people looking for houses. Joe would like the HSE to take some buildings further out in areas like Montenotte, Model Farm Road and the Lee Road. He thinks that people who work for the HSE live in these places so won’t choose them for buildings to provide services. As a result buildings and services are put in the city centre. |
0.38.50 - 0.40.25
|
Shawlies and booming trade on Coal Quay South Main Street, Castle Street, North Main Street when he was a child was booming. Joe’s grandmother was a shawlie. Joe’s wife re-enacts the shawlies. Joe remembers vermin everywhere on Coal Quay especially on Monday morning. Near where Bodega is now where Clayton Love’s used to be, the Loft Carpet is there now shawlies could trade in there too. You could trade indoors but you paid more to be out of the rain than trading outside. Joe’s grandmother traded under the clock and only sold fish- mackerel and apples. You’d be surprised how many ‘lords and ladies’ would buy their fruit and veg in the Coal Quay because it was fresh with mud still on the cabbage brought in by farmers on horse and cart. |
0.40.25- 0.41.15
|
Ryan’s Pub on North Main Street and sleeping Farmers Mary Ryans bar many people went in there in the mornings for a ‘pick me up’ to keep warm. Farmers would abandon the horse and cart to go in there. Most horses would know their way home even if the farmer had too many “nips of Powers”. The farmer would fall asleep in the back of the cart and wake up in Blarney or Ovens. Joe would jump on the back of the cart without the farmer knowing and go out the Carrigrohane Straights which was the countryside then. Then they might swim in the Lee Fields sometimes in their clothes. ‘We were young, foolish but happy’. |
0.41.15 - 0.42.05 |
Food, Shoes and the Pawn Weren’t getting T-bone steaks at home. But they had potatoes, vegetables and homemade skull (bread). Was never hungry. Mother would get remnants of lino from the Munster Furniture and Hardware and cut them for insoles for their shoes. They had good shoes for going to mass which you had to take off straight away at home to be sent to Jones’s Pawn on the end of Shandon Street. |
0.42.05- 0.43.30
|
School Violence and good teacher Hated St Joseph’s School because always got kicked in the ankle or had his toe stepped on or a clatter on the back of the ear for not being able to spell. Left there and went to St Francis School and the entrance was from North Main Street by Bradley’s Supermarket or by Broad Lane beyond the dispensary. Learned more in last two years in St Francis from lay teachers than he did from St Joseph. Teachers may have scolded them but never hit them. “Anything you don’t understand ask me” the teacher told them. Joe was watching the clock for when to leave, and watching the tides to know when the tides were bringing back the fish. |
0.43.30 - 0.44.50
|
Changes in the Marsh for families: safety & shopping Joe’s son would love to live in the Marsh to rear his children. Couldn’t let them run around on the street with the traffic. But they would have Fitzgerald’s Park and close to Mercy Hospital. 5 minutes from 3 different supermarkets. Sometimes hear people singing or shouting coming back from the pub. The neighbours come to watch. Only incident he remembers in 36 years is that a few car mirrors were broken. Grattan Street is off the beaten track despite Washington Street being so close. |
0.44.50 - 0.46.15
|
Food or not at School Not given food in St Francis School but given food in St Joseph’s in the morning “to toughen you up for the beating you would get in the afternoon”. Cocoa and creamy buns in the morning. A few years later they cut back to scones which weren’t the same! One time Joe didn’t get cocoa and a bun because his dad had gotten a promotion. And it upset Joe that all his friends got it. At the age of 10 or 11 he was in St Francis “the Rowdy Boys College”. St Peter and Pauls School was before Joe’s time. |
0.46.15 - 0.48.17 |
Food and Cooking Homemade skull or loaf of bread. His mother would make the bread. And nine times out of ten it would turn out right. the Hills were the biggest population of their aunts and cousins. Across the road from them was nanny Hill. Joe would get his dessert there. For school lunch he’d go home and get a sandwich with soup in the winter and diluted raspberry. Cheese sandwich- “poor man’s meat”. Very lucky to get a ham and cheese sandwich. When going back to school he would pause outside his house no 9 Devonshire Street. Across the road was 34 Nanny Hill’s house and she would bring over the heel of homemade skull plastered with blackcurrant jam which he’d eat on the way back to St Joseph’s on the ‘Dyke [Mardyke] only 5 minutes’ walk, but took him 10 or 15 minutes because he didn’t want to be punctual. He would get a punch from a brother for having a ring of jam around his lips. |
0.48.17 - 0.49.40
|
School beating by Presentation Brother and boy’s father’s revenge There is a [Presentation] brother who is now married and living in Grange with a son and daughter. Joe would call him names if he ever met him again. A friend of Joe’s spent three nights in the Mercy Hospital after a beating from this brother. He made him take down his trousers until he only had his Y-front underwear on and beat him there with a four-foot bamboo cane. He was lying on his belly in the Mercy. There’s a black fire escape in St Joseph’s which is still there. The father of that boy had the brother hanging over the fire escape. People were screaming. And Joe and others were hoping that he would drop him. |
0.49.40 - 0.51.39
|
Relief after school, Priest Friend assisting the Marsh Community Joe’s life began when he left that school because the fear was gone. He was able to concentrate in school then. In St Joseph’s the teacher was only interested in teaching 4 or 5 smart guys and the rest were punch bags. When Joe was 21 he had as good a job as any of his peers. The brothers were sadists he says. Thinks it took 5 years to become a priest and 7 to become a brother. They were young men who had never seen life and mostly put there by their parents. A retired priest, friend of Joe’s, ‘an t-athair Ó Murchú’ who was the priest in St Peter and Paul’s and is now in Belgooley. Joe goes down to him once a week on a Sunday and they bring him a creamy cake. When people were fighting for things in the parish he supported them, even when they weren’t agreeing with the HSE. The car park where Munster Furniture is the HSE were talking about putting a multi-storey car park there 30 years ago which was diverted to Dunnes Stores Car Park. |
0.51.39 - 0.53.03
|
The Marsh Community object to multi-storey carpark People in the Marsh chained themselves across Grattan Street to stop trucks coming in to build a multi-storey car park. But they told the Gardaí in advance so they were on their side and they had no trouble. Joe knew the sergeant well and they used advise them the best way to have a peaceful protest and yet stop everything. Joe has many other memories but feels a little bit under pressure because of the recorder. Other things that they did ‘fighting for their rights’ because they could see offices and buildings going up that they opposed. |
0.53.03 - 0.58.30
|
Problems with multi-storey car park and Student Accommodation in the Marsh Was in a meeting with the Council and Paul Moynihan from City Hall explained what was happening. The council own so much of the car park and building to right of Munster Furniture and Hardware. So if the council don’t sell these to the new developers there won’t be enough room for the student accommodation. Joe doesn’t have anything against students but object to their parties which have aged some local residents. Thinks in the past students didn’t behave how they do now. Joe & his wife decided they’d leave if the student accommodation is built, they don’t mind whether they go to the northside or to the southside, but somewhere on a bus route or somewhere near the city. Joe says he’s getting emotional because he always swore that he would die in the Marsh. Joe would like to see a small 5 or 6 storey hotel being built instead and there’s space for coaches. Or family housing being built. They named out other places where student accommodation could be built eg. The Good Shepherd building across from the Lee Fields and Joe was told the students would have so far to walk because they would be high-end students. Joe says the students behave like riff-raff when they are drunk. He was told the accommodation would have security. Joe knows one of the security men for the student accommodation on Lancaster Quay and they are behaved inside the complex but outside there is no control. Joe fears that students will be drinking in doorways in the Marsh or outside on tables which are being built for them to study on. Joe said that if they are 320 high-end students they will have cars and nowhere to park them, and they will have more money for alcohol. So Joe said the riff-raff students would be better! Joe can’t believe a walk from St Anne’s to UCC is too far. |
0.58.30 - 1.04.41
|
Sicknesses past and changes now People died from diseases which no one knew what caused them. Some diseases that were killing people have simple cures now. Joe is more concerned about sicknesses today including insects like ticks and leeches. They would go to the dispensary for medication and prescription. If anything was too serious they would send you to the A&E but first get you to sign a form saying you had visited him so that he could get paid. Lots of measles. Chickenpox. Mumps used to be a killer disease especially for men as it could make you impotent. If you went to get medication from the Dispensary you had to bring your own empty bottle. Completely different attitude from doctors now. Might have been given tablets even if there was nothing wrong with you. People who were sent to St Anne’s because of a drinking/ alcohol problem for a few weeks but never came out. Joe didn’t get a clip in the ear growing up but he did do it for his children. Joe used to drink and just wanted to sleep after it. He thinks that women today wouldn’t take the abuse that women used to put up with. One man who went to St Anne’s was signed out by his niece years later and he was afraid of the double-decker bus and went back in of his free will to St Anne’s. |
1.04.41 - 1.06.53
|
Issues with HSE Services in the city Centre Joe hopes HSE look elsewhere for offices rather than in the city centre. Methodone clinics around Cork Joe was told need to be in the city because they won’t travel for it which means it needs to be near Grattan Street. There’s a Community Garda. But Joe and his wife have not seen a Garda on the beat for three weeks. |
1.06.53 - 1.09.04
|
Work of the Middle Parish Community Centre Joe and others including George [Patterson] do their best to keep the Middle Parish Community Centre going. Narcotics anonymous rent out a room upstairs. Alcoholics Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous. There’s been no vandalism. Joe saw a man he knew going to Narcotics Anonymous outside La Verna near St Francis Church and he shook his hand because he was proud of him for trying to give up. |
1.09.04 - 1.26.27
|
Experiences as an alcoholic and trying to give up Joe describes himself as a “dry alcoholic”. Joe hasn’t drunk for six years. He didn’t realise he had a drink problem because he was never aggressive or barred from anywhere. It took Joe years to realise he was unable to home after work without first going to the pub. And that he was having a few pints in a number of bars and that this was adding up to ten pints a night. He decided eventually that he would stop. If someone had told him that he had a drink problem he would have been “highly insulted” and thought he could stop drinking any time he wanted. He went to a few AA meetings and they didn’t suit him. He used to smoke 55/60 cigarettes a day while driving articulated trucks long distance for 35 years all over Ireland. He gave up cigarettes and thought it would be easier to give up alcohol. Ten years ago he gave up alcohol for 2 years. Alcoholics’ Anonymous saying is ‘one day at a time’. He was down in Inchydoney Hotel with his family and dogs. He was tired after lots of driving to Dublin, Wicklow and delivering salt to Killybegs. He kept track of his progress being off alcohol and appreciated the support of his wife. He went into the hotel and had some coke. The Munster Final was on. While waiting at a busy bar for more Coke he saw two men he knew drinking stout. And he ordered a pint of Murphys stout after he saw them. He made ten attempts to leave the pint there, but it overpowered him. He had a devil on one shoulder and a guardian angel on the other. He usually drank a pint in four sups. He went close to the toilet for his first sup in case he was sick from not being used to drinking after two years. He ordered a half-pint of Murphys. He felt fairly content because he felt he could handle the alcohol now. He had two pints of Beamish in Forde’s with a friend of his on a Friday. And slowly he was having more pints and on Wednesdays as well as Fridays until “the drink had a hold of me again”. He knew he couldn’t handle whiskey. Collapsed three times due to liver poisoning. He had to come home from Turkey when he collapsed, his doctor said they saved his life. He wasn’t allowed to eat or drink for 4 days. His GP was waiting for him at midnight when he arrived home in Cork and brought him to the Mercy. He told Joe he was lucky because his liver function was only at 52% working. It took 17 hours for his liver to get to 53% working. After a few weeks he started drinking again. He collapsed at home one morning unconscious for 20 seconds. GP took tests. Went to the Regional Hospital and put in intensive care. Dr Seamus O’Mahony was his liver specialist out there. Seamus told him not to waste his time if he was going to keep drinking and not to come to him without his wife because she would tell the truth about his drinking. Doctor asked him how many units he drank and Joe asked to speak in pints not units. Joe said 20 pints. The doctor said that’s a lot to have in a week. And Joe’s wife said that’s on a Saturday! Two drinking sessions on a Saturday. He was getting liver function tests on a regular basis and his liver was getting stronger. Joe used to give up alcohol two days before going to the doctor but didn’t realise that alcohol makes triglycerides in the body which take days to be broken down. Joe used drink cans of beer at home when his wife was away. He would vomit it up after two ‘slugs’ or gulps. And then he would try to drink it again. He said that you have to admit it to yourself that you have a problem. He realised that if he didn’t stop he wouldn’t see his five grand-children grow up. He has never been happier than he is now sober. His children can ring him at any time for a lift. And his children can depend on him. Joe still takes one day at a time. Joe knew a guy who was 33 years sober and he went to London and started drinking and was knocked down by a bus. |
1.26.27 - 1.28.44
|
Family living in the Dispensary building Grattan Street Barrett family who lived in the Dispensary had children who are still alive living in southside who would be older than him. “they were all genuine down to earth people”. To the left of where the marriage registrar is now is where they lived. On the right hand side was an old lady sitting in a box like a phone box cut in half. And she would take people’s details as they entered. The double doors to the clinic were closed. The Barrett sons went to St Joseph’s School as well. Joe jokes about a previous interview I had with a friend of his Liam O hUiginn, and jokingly says he’s a very old man. Joe also apologises again for not being used to “speaking in public” pointing at the digital recorder. |
1.28.44 - 1.28.55
|
Outro. Interview ends. |