0.00.00 - 0.01.35 |
Paul gives his background. Lived in Military Hill Cork City, His father worked for Great Western Railway. Paul attend Christians and Went to University College Cork where he studied medicine |
0.01.36 - 0.04.29 |
In 1952 Pauls final year of secondary school a mobile x-ray unit came. Paul was nominated to be x-rayed first. which showed a shadow on his lungs. Which they told him was TB After spending a short time confined to his bed at home on a course of streptomycin injections and salicylic acid tablets Paul was sent to Heatherside sanitorium in Doneraile Co. Cork. This meant he missed participating in the Muster Schools cup in rugby.
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0.04.30 - 0.06.32 |
Paul speaks of Dr Noel Browne’s campaign against TB. Paul also mentions that he never spat up the infection and questions whether he had TB at all. He then goes on to mention his ward mate in the hospital. He a teenage mixed in with adult men |
0.06.32 - 0.07.12 |
Speaks briefly about his mother visiting and bringing him eggs to cure him, and the odd visit from teammates when they were on their way back from games in Limerick. Paul mentions here that he was in Heatherside for four months |
0.07.14 - 0.11.00 |
Paul tells a story about the night before a patient got discharged, they had a party in the ‘Panzer ward’. Songs sung, cigarettes and drink. They were interrupted by the DR Con O’Leary. Paul jumped into a bed with another patient and was subsequently caught by DR. The nest day he was summoned to the DR and told that ‘a nice boy from a good family shouldn’t be acting as such’. He was then moved to Lota on the outskirts of Cork City.
Paul mentions that years later in Canada he met the son of the DR and relayed the story to him. |
0.11.01 - 0.15.16 |
Paul mentions his undertaking of pre med at UCC and that in his second year he and other student were given the opportunity to help out with the polio epidemic that had taken hold in Cork 1956 for four weeks. Eight students were assigned to ST Finbarr’s hospital to relive the nurses at night-time. Paul describes the fever ward and the hissing of machines and the dark dim light. He then relays a story of how he had to manually ventilate a four-year-old girl called Margot. Who was too small for the iron lungs. Paul further this by explain how Margot lived till she was seventeen and that she had a great relationship with the nurses. Paul has written about this in various publications. Holy Bough, UCC alumni magazine. Margot’s family say the article and contacted Paul. Pairs of students would be assigned a patient and alternate manually bagging and sucking out secretions. |
0.15.17 - 0.19.15 |
Paul speaks of how working in the epidemic made them fell. He mentions that his girlfriend at the time (now his wife) was asked to leave her digs. And how another volunteer came home one night to find all his belongings on the doorstep.
Paul goes on to talk about how good the nurses were especially Nancy Reardon and Kathleen Stoker He refers to polio outbreak in Chicago a year earlier and how the vaccine was rolled out there. And how the same didn’t happen in Cork. Though he did hear that some were offered the vaccine but not those helping in the hospital, only those who went iin ambulance to retrieve patients. None of his colleagues contracted the disease, one did get meningitis but not extreme case. Mention of Patrick Cockburn’s book ‘Broken Boy’ |
0.19.15 - 0.21.42 |
Pauls talks of the public health response. How Cork took British Laisses faire attitude. How the country was in a panic but the measure did not stack up. He mentions the closer of some aspects of society like sports and swimming pools. |
0.21.42 - 0.24.47 |
Paul speaks of a woman called Lou Fitzgerald and how she helped his mother when he was sick. Lou (real name Julia) had been in Cummann na mBan during War of Independence. Talk veers towards independence period |
0.24.47 - 0.27.15 |
Paul speaks of the fear he had when diagnosed with TB. Fear of chest surgery. We speak about Heatherside and Sean O’Riordan |
0.27.15 - 0.28.07 |
Paul brings up how in the sanitorium the topic of a ‘cure’ was always a subject of conversation. Tells story of trying to recreate swizz conditions as a means of getting better. Tis entailed his pushing his bed to the veranda and letting the snow fall on him as he slept. |
0.28.07- 0.3112 |
We talk about the crafts that patients did in Heatherside. Wallet making etc. Paul mentions that there was a one man that controlled that. He also mentions that crafts were one way of getting ladies attention.
Paul mentions how once he was put on Iduronic acid hydroxide he rapidly improved. He even remembers a Life magazine with drug on front cover being brought into ward.
How this drug was the reason the sanitoria closed. |
0.31.12 - 0.33.30 |
Some talk about COVID and TB and Polio similarities. Lockdowns ETC. |
0.33.30 - 0.40.10 |
End Chat where we talked about our families. Paul mentions his brother Brendan being in the showband the Dixies. INTERVIEW ENDS |
0.00.35 - 0.02.25 |
House of Birth. She was born in 88 Wolfe Tone Street, maiden name Cambridge. Her father was Denis and her mother was Margaret O’Connor. She speaks of her family being twelve in total, six boys and six girls. She talks about growing up in Wolfe Tone Street. She lived in a tenement of about five or six floors with the ground floor occupied by the ‘caretaker’, a couple. Each floor cleaned their own and she remarks that she had a very good life even in the tenement. |
0.02.26 - 0.04.26 |
Schooling. She went to St. Vincent’s Convent School, and remained there until second class. She recounts an event in school when a lay teacher made a public display of her for failing to answer a question in class and that sense of humiliation experienced never left her memory. After that event she switched to North Presentation school, she was around 8 years old at the time, and finished her schooling there. She left the North Pres before she was fourteen and went to work. |
0.04.26- 0.07.27 |
First Job in Shoe Factory. She talks of her one and only job in Cork she had that of a Shoe Factory on Hanover Street where the present Labour Exchange is situated, owned by Dwyers. She found working there to be ‘okay’. She makes a general observation that in her life she never met ‘horrible people’, yet brings up that incident with the teacher again. She stayed in Dwyer’s until she was twenty one or two until after meeting her husband when they decided to go to England. Her mother was angry at her for giving up a ‘good job’ with pay at three pounds seven and six pence a week. She found the Dwyer’s to be good people to work for. They also had Lee Boot on Washington Street where Square Deal is now. There was no doctor on site as at the Sunbeam but there was a doctor on the South Mall that you could visit. She remembers the doctors rooms opposite the Victoria Hotel. |
0.07.28 - 0.11.56 |
Time in England and marriage. She speaks of her time in England. She got married there. She worked in factory jobs, one of which did remote controls on the floor where she worked. She went to Birmingham first and then up to London. She got married in 1952. Never experienced anti-Irish prejudice while there. Her husband’s name was James but they called him ‘Jimmy’. He was a crane driver when she was over there with him. He was working in the railway as a fireman when he went to England first, before Elizabeth met him. She met him in Cork after he returned briefly. Only stayed in England for a few years and decided to come back after Elizabeth became pregnant. They almost went to Australia after a scheme came out trying to entice people to live there. The scheme assisted you in the fare out there, ten pounds. They had all the forms signed to go out after getting each round of papers signed by a priest or a Guard, which cost one shilling. Just at the final stage of going when she became pregnant and she had morning sickness and that ended that endeavour. |
0.11.57 - 0.14.07 |
Return to Cork and finding her home. She talks of returning to Cork to live with Jimmy’s parents at 53 Kent Road, Ballyphehane. She says then that she lived first with Jimmy’s grandmother in an old run down cottage house in a laneway off where the Bridewell Garda Station is. There was about eight houses there but she felt a bit frightened there by its darkness and isolation. They were condemned and people living there expected to get Corporation Houses soon. But Jimmy’s parents knew a man on Pearce Road who had a good job in the Corporation and he put a good word for them and they got the house at 60 Kent Road after it became vacant. |
0.14.08 - 0.16.24 |
Ballyphehane before and during development. She talks of Ballyphehane before it was built up fully. She wouldn’t have visited Ballyphehane when she was younger. Only the little houses in O’Growney Crescent were there, maybe not all of them, when she was growing up. Part of Pearce Road and part of Connolly Road was also there. The place along Connolly Road at the crossroads by the Park was all earth the way down. She doesn’t remember any market gardens around here but recalls a family a few doors up, the Varians, who came from the market gardens. She remembers construction up by Sonny Fords, the shop, and she was asked to call Georgie who was working on the flats for the Corporation after a woman across the way had died. |
0.16.27 - 0.19.44 |
Ballyphehane Church and Credit Union. They were there before the Church. They started the Church when Elizabeth came to Ballyphehane. She remembers a man who used to visit each house with his book collecting subscriptions for the Church, a shilling a week. The man who did the collection was a mason, the Hurley’s and he went to America afterwards and is still there. She talks of the Credit Union but you had to pay half a crown to join and you would get a little pink book. At that time it was over at the sacristy at the Church and you joined over there because they were building the new Credit Union. You had to have thirty euros [pounds? Shillings?] saved before you could borrow ten. Great service – and she remembers that it was a priest who first set it up after he went to America and brought the idea back here. He organised meetings for the local people in relation to the idea. She thinks O’Flynn was his name…died in the plane. It was all run by volunteers. She remembers David McAuiliffe, known locally as ‘Uncle Dave’ in relation to it. Elizabeth worked with him. |
0.19.45 - 0.25.27 |
Buying household goods and groceries. She talks of her husband getting seven or eight pounds as wages for the week when she got married first. You would buy something with the two week holiday money he would receive. She bought her first fridge out in Togher for thirty five pounds. That would mean there would be no holiday but instead you have a washing machine and fridge. She talks about shopping for groceries and the Spar coming. First was the ‘Bally’, the ‘Ballyphehane Stores’ down the road where the AIB is now. When you got a bit more money you go to the supermarket, to Dunnes Stores. She talks of Luke Burke’s having a shop in Patrick Street and when he closed down Ben Dunne bought that. She recalls seeing a man in a café in town with her daughter Mary (who worked in Dunnes Stores) who ran the original Dunnes Stores back then and who featured in a documentary recently. Jackie talks about what shopping was like in there and mentions the people working in there some of whom were local and mentions a Mona O’Donovan. |
0.25.30 - 0.31.09 |
Living in Gurranabraher with her family. Elizabeth speaks briefly on living in Gurranabraher and then recounts playing with her brother Paddy and him falling after she used to pretend he was a horse and she the driver on their way down to her grandparents who lived in the laneway off Wolfe Tone Street. She talks about her grandparents and their house which was a two roomed house which formed most of it and how they used to pawn items when they were on ‘the binge’ and how her mother would try to avoid them in street by going different route to town when they were in that state. There was eight [children?] in her grandmother’s house. Her mother married young. Two girls died of TB as it was rampant at the time. Her mother’s maiden name was Margaret Babbington. She doesn’t know much about the Babbingtons. She couldn’t remember her grandfather working. |
0.31.18 - 0.38.12 |
Her father and WW1. James, Elizabeth’s grandson, mentions that her father (his great-grandfather) fought in World War One and Elizabeth urges him to speak on it as he knows more than her. James then recounts a story that he was told that the grandfather was fighting with the British Army and during this particular military engagement the healthiest and fittest were out in front and those that were injured were left behind and the priest, or ‘padre’ as they were called asked for volunteers to remain behind with the wounded which would have put their lives in danger. His great-grandfather volunteered and helped the priest by getting stretchers up to the wounded. His bravery was rewarded by a special medal and they have a very good photo of him in uniform. Elizabeth then remembers when she was younger and the medals being in the chest of drawers upstairs in the main bedroom, one of three. She remembers the medals being in there but she doesn’t know where they went subsequently. Her sister’s grandson did the research on the subject and unearthed the story of the bravery medal and James himself is involved in Camden Fort and the World War One room there and hope to do something on Denis Cambridge there for that. He then says that his grandfather became very good friends with the war chaplain, who was Archdeacon Duggan. Elizabeth then speaks about him and the easy way of him as he visited them in their house in Gurranabraher. She also relates a story of how she met him once and he said to her that her father was such a good man he went straight to heaven and brave as well. Elizabeth adds that her father was a very, very quite man, nice man. He never seemed to be affected by the war and he never talked about it. He died young of cancer at the age of fifty-six. Her grand-nephew and grandson have replica medals. She doesn’t remember any negative reaction to him being in the British Army after he came back. He worked as a labourer in timber yard. |
0.38.13 - 0.42.29 |
TB and Cork. Elizabeth talks about TB not affecting her family as they had cleared it in Cork but it did kill her two aunts on her mother side. They were young women. She relates that she know a number of people, male and female, who worked in the shoe factory in Hanover Street that died of TB. They used to say it was due to the river by the factory. They were young people. They used to go down to Sarsfield Court and Mount Desert. She believes most people died from it because they had no drugs. Discussion about conditions for TB and Elizabeth recounts her tenement house on Wolfe Tone Street having only one toilet with children on every floor but it was kept spotless due to the caretaker couple who made sure everyone cleaned their own part. Jimmy’s parents used to live in a tenement on Peter Street where they had only one toilet as well but no running water. You would have to go out on the street to a water pump and fill your container and bring it back up to the top floor where they lived. |
0.42.30 - 0.46.11 |
Arrival of Electricity and the near death of her brothers. She talks about the change-over to new energy sources from gas to electricity. There was only gas in the house in Gurranabraher but then they put in electricity and light would come on with a switch. She recalls how her two brothers were nearly killed by a leakage from the gas piping after they removed the gas fittings in the house as they slept in their bedroom. They were saved by their aunt who lived with them as well as she heard them groaning. She couldn’t get help as they taught it was a hoax when she rang for help as that night was a bad night weather wise and a lot of hoaxes were being rang in. Her aunt ran in her bare feet to the Garda Station at the end of Rock Steps on the North Mall just beyond O’Connor’s funeral home to get help. They both survived. |
0.46.12 - 0.48.54 |
Arrival in new home. She talks about moving into her new house in Kent Road. She was delighted to have her own house, her own front door and key. She had one child, Stephen, when she moved in. Denis was born in the house. She had six children in total and then mentions that she had seven as one child died. She then talks about the family company she has in the house and how she liked that after her husband died. She loves her house. |
0.48.55 - 0.54.43 |
Family outings around Ballyphehane. She says that she doesn’t miss anything from the old times in Ballyphehane but then recounts how she used to take the children out the Tramore Road, out to Celia’s pub was and there was a stream there and you think you were in Youghal by the stream. Her husband would go in for a pint and if he had the money he would get a bottle of lemonade for the children. The children would paddle in the stream and it was very pleasant. Jackie then adds that she remembers walking down Tramore Road on a Sunday with her father in front on them carrying a stick going onto Hangdog Road, where Kelleher’s Electrical is and there was a farm there. They would stop by the gate to look at the chickens and hens but as you were walking down the road the rats would run across. That is why her father had the stick. Elizabeth says that where Musgraves is now was also a farm. It was country. Jackie talks about going for a walk up Airport Hill into the Airport bar. Also going over St. Finbarr’s Club house. Her aunt and her family socialised with them a lot as her husband died young. Elizabeth loved the walk going down to Blackrock. There was no bus or car and they would walk down the marina. Her husband never had a car so the family used to walk everywhere. She couldn’t afford the bus for all the children and the buses weren’t plentiful. |
0.54.43 - 0.56. 27 |
The Bandon Train. She recalls the train that you could see on top of the hill running along. She believes it only went once a day. She remembers being asked to meet her brother’s girlfriend from Dunmanway who arrived by train at the station for Bandon. Discussion arises over where was the Bandon line ran through close to the home. |
0.56.28 - 0.59.13 |
Activities and social events like Bonfire Night. Jackie recalls the boys used to go out to Lane’s Wood, at the back of Vermont. Jackie then mentions bonfire night and they having it at the green close to the home and a lady who used to set up a table for refreshments for the children for free. Elizabeth recalls a man who played the melodeon. He was called Mr Mac, for McCarthy. He would play when the Tory Top was closed or the ‘Little Man’s’ and there would a great sing song with a sofa still there and that would be the last into the fire. There would be dancing as well. The Little Man was the Horseshoe Inn. Very little entertainment around here. Bonfire night was a big night and John Millis used to collect a pennies from children and he would get the diluted orange and he would give them a few sweets. |
0.59.13 – 1.05.04 |
Her Social life and Dancing. She didn’t socialise much. She didn’t drink or smoke. She loved to dance though. She went to the Arcadia and City Hall before she got married. She thought the Arcadia brilliant. She went to any big dance that came which could cost as much as five shillings. It would be on from nine to two every Saturday night for a half a crown but if a big band came it would be five shillings. She met her husband Jimmy in the City Hall at a dance. She relates how the ‘boys’ would be on one side and the ‘girls’ would be on the other and the male would come across to ask for a dance. She didn’t have much preparation for the dances – the clothes weren’t as glamourous as today or as much make-up. She said she wasn’t into make-up generally. Her husband however liked to look good – always careful to mind his clothes. |
1.05.05 – 1.09.26 |
Sense of community and helping in Ballyphehane. She experienced a great sense of community in Ballyphehane. She is over sixty years here and hasn’t a bad word for the place. Her son Denis was born upstairs, the first after she moved to Kent Road. He was helped in delivery by Mrs. Willis next door. She was a great neighbour as you could call her. Her husband loved sweet things and she remembers when he was sick he had a ‘catch’ of sweets down the wardrobe and his bottle as well. She thinks that he used to get up to get a sweet but there would be a little bit of alcohol with it. She was the opposite and always hated alcohol. If she needed help when he was ill she would rap on the wall and the neighbour would call in, but mostly Linda who developed a good relationship with him during his ill times. Recounts a story about Linda getting hit accidently. |
1.09.27 – 1.14.14 |
Ballyphehane as child friendly and welcoming. It was a great place to bring up children. She experienced no problem. Jackie speaks about how everybody hadn’t much so there wasn’t much competition and they all played together. Elizabeth then relates how a new neighbour moved in close by and her advice to her about renovating her house with the start point being the bedroom and then the kitchen and you have the rest of your life to do the rest. Nowadays, she thinks, young ones want it done straight away. Both Elizabeth and Jackie talk about how over the years new families have moved in and integrated very well. Jackie remembers how they used to play soccer using a neighbours gate and their own gate as goalposts. Never any trouble with the neighbours. Elizabeth speaks about a new neighbour who is ‘dark skinned’ and says she doesn’t bother anyone but doesn’t get involved either. They are very quite. |
1.14.15 – 1.23.11 |
Musgrave Park and its impact on their life. Elizabeth talks about the rugby pitch which is next to her house and remembers the local opposition to the flood lights and people coming to her door to sign a petition against them, fearing they would be doing concerts. There was also a collection for to employ a solicitor but when the lights were installed, she states, they interfered with nobody. Jackie urges Lizzie to talk about the time the All Blacks came and the place being full of camper vans but Lizzie talks about another time a visiting couple asked her could they leave their bags there with her for them to go for a walk and they went for a walk around the lough. She fed them when they came back. They intended to ‘thump’ back to Limerick after the match. Lizzie wouldn’t allow them to do that as it would be dark after the match and she persuaded to stay the night and go in the morning. Jackie again goes back to the All Black match and the visitors had camper vans and all the gear for making their own food but still the front door was left open and they used to come in to use the bathroom. The only problem she mentions would be traffic sometimes but the Guards are very good. James talks about the concerts there and one in particular, El Divo, and how Uncle Arthur expected to arrive in the house and be able to hear the concert but that turned out to be not the case. General talk amongst those present of how nice it is to live in Ballyphehane. Jamie Fury then reads the legal document regarding the recording of Elizabeth ‘Lizzie’ O’Sullivan. INTERVIEW ENDS |
Describes attending school in cold substandard buildings. Preferred self-directed learning to rote memorizing. Her love of nature and science was evident early and evolved into her passion to follow medicine as a vocation and career, despite the opposition of her parents and GP who feared it would be a hard life especially for a woman.
Reflects on the deficiencies of medical training in University College Cork, especially the deliberate use of fear and humiliation in teaching which has left a negative mark on her and other colleagues. Suggests that the need to imprint so much information through humiliation is no longer necessary due to improvements in technology.
Outlines her career path through various roles, experiences and responsibilities including working in Accident and Emergency and time in New Zealand.
Discusses her impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre both as a physical building with leaks and in disrepair and as a unique workplace with a community of multiple disciplines which function well together.
Speaks about her current work as an Area Medical Officer, the kind of patients she sees and typical issues that arise including developmental checks on babies and following up with parents.
Reflects on attitudes towards medicine and the HSE especially among parents, and how as a doctor she has to deal with this in order to achieve best outcomes for child patients.
Outlines the problems with Grattan Street staff car parking and the issues it cause.
Talks about the outlines of the history she has gleaned about Grattan Street Medical Centre Building as a Quaker Meeting House and as a public dispensary.
Speaks of the marriage registry office which is part of the Grattan Street building, where weddings happen during her work day creating a strange but joyous contrast.
Discusses the amount of paperwork and documentation required for all the work in Grattan Street that remains from past decades which fascinates her.
Reflects on her hopes and the possible futures for the Grattan Street Medical Centre building, and the fate of services that will move to St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. Compares the two locations and emphasizes the importance of a good workplace culture within a building. Talks about possible patient attitudes to the new building. Hopes it will have a communal staff canteen.
Outlines the importance of administration staff in contributing to positive experiences for patients and facilitating the efficient work clinical staff.
Reflects on the difficulties of a medical career including 90 hour weeks, missing out on parties and travelling, and having to tell mothers that their babies have died.
]]>Edith grew up in Youghal where she recalls playing childhood games including Red Rover, chainey, a makeshift tennis and sandcastles on the beach.
Describes attending school in cold substandard buildings. Preferred self-directed learning to rote memorizing. Her love of nature and science was evident early and evolved into her passion to follow medicine as a vocation and career, despite the opposition of her parents and GP who feared it would be a hard life especially for a woman.
Reflects on the deficiencies of medical training in University College Cork, especially the deliberate use of fear and humiliation in teaching which has left a negative mark on her and other colleagues. Suggests that the need to imprint so much information through humiliation is no longer necessary due to improvements in technology.
Outlines her career path through various roles, experiences and responsibilities including working in Accident and Emergency and time in New Zealand.
Discusses her impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre both as a physical building with leaks and in disrepair and as a unique workplace with a community of multiple disciplines which function well together.
Speaks about her current work as an Area Medical Officer, the kind of patients she sees and typical issues that arise including developmental checks on babies and following up with parents.
Reflects on attitudes towards medicine and the HSE especially among parents, and how as a doctor she has to deal with this in order to achieve best outcomes for child patients.
Outlines the problems with Grattan Street staff car parking and the issues it cause.
Talks about the outlines of the history she has gleaned about Grattan Street Medical Centre Building as a Quaker Meeting House and as a public dispensary.
Speaks of the marriage registry office which is part of the Grattan Street building, where weddings happen during her work day creating a strange but joyous contrast.
Discusses the amount of paperwork and documentation required for all the work in Grattan Street that remains from past decades which fascinates her.
Reflects on her hopes and the possible futures for the Grattan Street Medical Centre building, and the fate of services that will move to St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. Compares the two locations and emphasizes the importance of a good workplace culture within a building. Talks about possible patient attitudes to the new building. Hopes it will have a communal staff canteen.
Outlines the importance of administration staff in contributing to positive experiences for patients and facilitating the efficient work clinical staff.
Reflects on the difficulties of a medical career including 90 hour weeks, missing out on parties and travelling, and having to tell mothers that their babies have died.
0.00.00 - 0.00.23 |
Intro |
0.00.23- 0.02.04 |
Games Played as Child in Youghal Grew up in Youghal. Children’s games: chasing games, Red Rover, What Time is it Mr Wolf?, Chainy. Elastics game: Long piece of elastic tied into a loop with a person at each end with complex rules about how to jump in and out and over and back. Played tennis: in the tennis club and also “over the gate”. It was the era of John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova and Bjorn Borg. Played a form of football. Made mud pies. |
0.02.04- 0.02.26 |
Describes game Chainy or Chainey in more detail Still played in her child’s school. One person catches another and they must keep holding hands and keep catching people until they are all holding hands in a long chain. |
0.02.26- 0.03.06 |
Describes Red Rover or Bulldog She didn’t like Red Rover. Stand in chain and chant “Red Rover, Red Rover, we call over X” Begins with 2 children holding hands and the person who is called over must try to run through their hands and break the link, which Edith says always hurt and as she was “quite small” she was usually the weak link. If someone didn’t break the link they had to join that chain. |
0.03.06- 0.03.47 |
Games on The beach Not much time in the water/sea because it was too cold. Made sandcastles, sand tunnels, forts, dams to keep the sea out or bring the sea in. These plans never worked and Edith says “you learned about futility as a smallie”. |
0.03.47- 0.04.38 |
Playing Without Adult Supervision Spent a lot of time quite bored in fields or on bikes. “We’d just head off on the bikes for the day: I don’t really know where we went or why we went.” Only television was RTE 1 and RTE 2- “Poverty 1 and Poverty 2” there was nothing to watch. Call to friend and come back when felt like it. No phones. Improvised ways out of problems. Reasonable amount of time without adult supervision. But there were always watchful adult eyes: “if you were doing something you shouldn’t be doing your parents would usually hear about it.” |
0.04.38- 0.05.00 |
Where not allowed to play Places not allowed to be on bikes when little: out the front on the main road where cars were quite fast. Not supposed to go on the back fields where there was a bull. (Suggestion in her response is that they may have not always obeyed!) |
0.05.00 - 0.05.16 |
Home Mum, dad and sister 3 years older. Mum was primary school principal. Dad worked Monday-Friday 9-5. |
0.05.16- 0.06.51 |
Primary School Remembers being cold and very bored. Went to school in “Park” on a crossroads on the top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Where her mum was teacher. 2 teacher outside toilets and no central heating when she started school. There was a stove to heat the classroom very like the school in Muckross Farms. Two “boot rooms” or cloakrooms. Inside toilets eventually installed. Very few students. |
0.06.51- 0.09.50 |
Secondary School Went to Loreto in Youghal it was also very cold. Some years were in prefabs. The school was near the lighthouse. When you were bored you could look out to the sea from an old redbrick house which was left to the nuns. It was very exposed to the weather- wind, rain and salt spray from the sea-wall. Enjoyed maths and science. Lots of repetition in the schoolwork. Would prefer self-directed learning not just learning by rote. For people with other kinds of intelligence it wasted their potential and opportunity. Heuristic learning- learning through play and experience. She learned how to sew a button, balance a cheque book and pay a bill. Skills for living in the world: how to cook how to clean how to look after your physical health, mental health should be taught. |
0.09.50- 0.11.19 |
Love of Nature and Science leading to Medicine. Was always interested in nature and biological sciences: “mad about nature”. When 13 or 14 a friend brought a roadkill mink to science class to dissect it. The teacher was a bit squeamish, but Edith said she would do it “no bother”. Remembers “pure awe” at how remarkably perfect the insides were, “how it all fitted, and it all worked”. Had dissected earthworms before. Drifted then to wanting to do medicine. Set her heard on it. |
0.11.19- 0.14.09 |
Medicine as a Vocation, the Determination Required Mom and dad really didn’t want her to do medicine at all. They called in the local GP to tell her not to do it- which had the opposite effect. She applied for medicine at 16 when she sat her leaving cert for the first time and had to repeat it because she didn’t get enough points. In some ways in hindsight her parents were probably right. It is a hard life and requires working very hard for a very long time. Edith was a premature baby and was always physically small and thin and her parents were concerned. Her colleague with an Italian grandmother described the need to do medicine as being like a holy fire [Note: “sacro fuoco” maybe?] similar to a vocation but perhaps not spiritual. If you have this fire nothing else will do. She also applied for computer science. If she hadn’t done medicine in college, she thinks she would have gone back to do it later in life. Local GP told her it’s a very hard life for a woman- which is not the thing to say to a 15-year-old. Thinks the nuns that taught her was feminist in their way as they were ambitious for their students. The GP said that you don’t want to do nightshifts when pregnant or be on call when you have small babies. The cards are very much stacked against you to make it in medicine as a consultant as a woman. Edith says he was right but that you don’t want to hear that at 15. |
0.14.09- 0.15.17 |
Nuns’ Ambition for the girls Only one in school to do medicine. Many of the students did honours maths. There was competition between the boys’ school and the girls’ school. They’ve now combined. Some schools didn’t offer honours maths or honours science subjects to leaving cert for girls. |
0.15.17- 0.18.40 |
Medical Training in UCC University College Cork Didn’t love medicine in UCC. Didn’t find the training easy- a culture of throwing people in to it. Students told that most of them would become GPs and that medical students learn themselves they don’t need to be taught. Lectures often had little relevance to what was in the book. Clinical training involved bullying, teaching by fear, humiliation. Consultant was seen as god. Lots of waiting around for people who didn’t turn up. Mental fallout for some of the people in her class. And the system may not have made them better doctors. Saw how students were taught differently overseas. Students were getting sick in the morning with nerves before clinics. Had friends who weren’t doing medicine. Met her now husband at 19. Always had something outside of medicine to stay grounded. Always liked the clinical work and the patients. |
0.18.40 - 0.23.40 |
Clinical Training Book learning- through lectures. Clinical placements for students with a particular service for a time follow their team and learn how to take a patient history and examine a patient. Initially must ask about everything when taking patient histories until you know what to look for. Lived in nurses’ home in Limerick for six weeks. Consultant would take you to see an interesting patient to ask you questions. Some were fine but some were set up so that you would definitely fail so that you know that you know nothing and be humiliated. It was done to everybody no one was singled out. Describes how the consultant asked students questions. Thinks that the experience has left a mark on her and otherwise confident colleagues as they sometimes have difficulty answering questions in group settings, or when in a particular tone. Describes it as like being triggered. Edith didn’t go to one consultant’s clinics because she found she wasn’t learning from him. No one would notice if she wasn’t there. Jokes that she hopes UCC doesn’t as they’ll take away her degree! |
0.23.40- 0.25.25 |
Why this teaching system was used in UCC Consultants wanted to imprint the exceptions and rare cases on their minds so they wouldn’t forget. It was basically the Socratic method. They were once told that they weren’t good enough to be medical students. Then not good enough to be the vets in Ballsbridge and lastly that they weren’t good enough to be the medical correspondent in the Irish Times! Sounds funny now but at the time they were devastated. But Edith still remembers the name of the particular type of amputation due to this scene. This system of teaching & learning was designed when people need to remember a lot of information. Now things have changed as “all the information is there” now you need to learn how to use it. An interesting patient is one which had something which was rare. Edith describes it as something with four legs, a tail and neighs but is a zebra not a horse. |
0.26.05- 0.30.07 |
Career Path for medical students SHO- senior house officer. After qualifying you become an intern. After a first year as an intern you can become an SHO. Then become a Registrar, then a Senior Registrar, Specialist Registrar and eventually a Consultant. SHO could be 2-4 years long. SHOs are the general grunts they do all the hard work. Edith did 6 months surgery in Mercy Hospital, 6 months of medicine in the South Infirmary Hospital and really enjoyed them. Every thirds week in the Mercy they worked 110 hours. In hindsight they had “ridiculous levels of responsibility”. Then did the 2 year specialist paediatric training scheme in Dublin. Then did paediatrics in New Zealand, then accident and emergency. Did GP training in New Zealand. Returned to Ireland when her eldest daughter was 1. Worked as GP in Cork. After her twins were born Edith went back to work when they were 8 months old. She worked for Swiftcare for 5 years. Husband stayed at home to mind children and was going to go back to work. She was clinical lead with Swiftcare which included corporate, management and clinical. Looking to reduce her hours and her friend asked if she would be interested in a job in Grattan Street and she started March 2013. |
0.30.07- 0.33.44 |
Enjoyed Accident and Emergency work in New Zealand Edith says A&E in New Zealand is fabulous. It was real doctoring. The immediacy of it. See lots of different things. Got her clinical confidence- could deal with anything. Security removed anyone who was abusive. There was always enough resources, staff, beds. People weren’t burnt out in the way they are in Ireland. Requires being on call on nights. Did A&E in the Hutt outside wealthy Wellington CBD Central Business District and Porirua. Deprived areas around the Hutt so there were cases of self-harm, domestic abuse and patients from lower-socioeconomic areas. Gravitated towards those areas, similar in her time in Temple Street. In Cork Edith works mainly in the Northside. The social supports either weren’t there or didn’t work in her experience in Ireland. Children unable to access basic dental care was unheard of in New Zealand where they have better primacy care. |
0.33.44- 0.36.36 |
Early Memory & description of Grattan Street Medical Centre A woman working downstairs said it was like coming to Colditz [German WW2 Prisoner of War Camp]. Arrived with a friend. Everyone was so nice. An old Quaker Meeting House. In busy urban areas between a school, busy road, houses, church complex. Hodgepodge! Kind of Victorian road frontage. Older building at the back made of cut stone. Higgledy-piggledy. Different types of signage. There’s a bit of a railing and bit of a ramp. Building kept together with duct tape and bits of binder twine. It’s a bit sad looking. But it has been here a long time and will be here in the future. A building that’s seen use and is embedded in the community. In keeping with Middle Parish. |
0.36.36- 0.39.02 |
Services in Grattan Street Medical Centre Health centre which provides community-based services for people based in Middle Parish, inner-city area, eye clinic provides community eye services for all of the North Lee HSE area- from Blarney to Carrigtwohill. Community podiatry clinic. Community medical doctors: child development clinics and vaccination services for North Lee. Public Health Nurse (PHN) services based in Grattan Street. Home Care Services Unit. Community dental services has moved out. Girls at front desk do European Health Visit Card and stamp forms- eye clinic etc. Community Welfare Officer used to be there as well but they have moved. Vaccination services. Similar but disparate services. Serve different populations within the community. Community based services are geographically decided rather than by your condition. |
0.39.02- 0.40.40 |
Engagement with a Community Based Service Hopes that services run in the community for the community get a better engagement rather than traveling to a tertiary centre. More likely to engage with a PHN who you may have been to before than an anonymous person in an anonymous clinic that changes each time you go. Community knowledge of Grattan Street in a way that there isn’t for CUH. Grattan Street doesn’t deal with life and death so expectations are different to a hospital. Physically less distance for people to travel in the community. |
0.40.40- 0.43.44 |
Working in Grattan Street Communal Building Uses Grattan Street for office-based work. Some clinics in Grattan Street but the demographics have changed and there are fewer babies and young children in the area. Primarily paper-pushing and renewing the connections that you have with the people who work in Grattan Street. Clinics in South Doc so it’s possible for Edith not to meet any other healthcare professionals only patients so Grattan Street is a social hub and important part of the job where information is transmitted in a more informal way not through writing. Importance of feedback. And Grattan Street facilitates that. Communal building. Can see people walking past and talk to them if you leave your office door open. Facilitates those networks. You will know who is in the building and check in with Celine in the office to see who else is there and what is happening. AMO- Area Medical Officer now Community Medical Doctors. |
0.43.44- 0.51.20 |
Clinics and Patients in Grattan Street Afternoon clinic downstairs in room 4 in Grattan Street. 6-10 patients in an afternoon clinic from 2:30-4pm. Anything referred in by the PHN or the assessment of needs- the disability services, and early intervention- concern with an ongoing developmental delay in child in the community. Checks for vision, head checks, hip checks. Partly routine partly not routine. Patients tend to be very early or very late. People will turn up 30 minutes early or 15-20 minutes late. Other places people turn up on time or a few minutes late. But with small babies delays happen for parents. Staff has high tolerance for that. Sometimes a mum will come with other children as well, or with a granny or granny will come with the children or there will be a friend or helper there too. Majority of patients come from PHNs. Form from PHN saying who their GP is and why they’re being referred. Always checks their names especially as more and more patients don’t have a typical Irish name. Some of them change mobile numbers often so checking those details is important. Change of address is also a problem. Some come from Edel House a women’s homeless service. Takes a background history or birth history- where they were born, birth weight, past medical history. Discuss risk factors, examine patients and how to proceed and be very clear with follow up instructions with the parents. We only remember 30% of what we are told. Usually don’t see patients again- not a follow up, ongoing service, don’t provide therapeutic intervention. “Good at normal”- this is within the range of what we expect. Much of medicine is about the abnormal. Most usual medical issues she deals with: Vision checks for squint, hip checks- concern about deformation, head checks. Developmental assessment- concern about autism or global developmental delay or intellectual disability. Preschools are good at spotting developmental concerns and referring them. |
0.51.20- 0.54.53 |
Attitudes of Parents towards Health & Medicine and HSE Parents want the best for children and are happy to do the best what it takes. Rare case where parent is in denial about their child’s situation- Edith doesn’t hassle them so as not to sour therapeutic relations down the line. Most people engage unlike adult medicine. Some parents may have complicated or chaotic lives and social workers may need to get involved. Advocate for the child’s best interests and is represented in the family. Even parents with most complicated lives can address the child’s needs. HSE is different. Expectation of a bad service especially where Grattan Street looks a bit rough and ready, but surprised that they get a good service and Edith is pleasant and doesn’t rush them out. Difficult conversations about telling parents of long waiting lists. Edith cannot speed up assessments. |
0.54.53- 0.58.43 |
Most Unusual Cases come across Doesn’t like unusual. Should not be seeing anything acute or sinister. A child staring into space could have autism sometimes it could be an absence seizure which needs a difficult treatment. Genetic abnormality which causes a developmental delay. Acute cases usually picked up by the paediatricians. Be careful about not scaring parents. Sometimes parents are reluctant to go to hospital. Acute cases are the ones that you think about when you go home and are not at work. Acute is something which cannot wait. Less concerned about something which is stable and isn’t going to change eg if someone is fragile X a chromosomal condition which causes developmental delay, commonest cause of intellectual disability- if a patient has this it is not going to go away. But if there’s a child you think has a brain tumour which has given them an acute squint which has come on over 24 hours out of nowhere then you don’t want to wait. |
0.58.43- 1.01.44 |
Dealing with Parents Reluctant to go to Hospital Most parents want what’s best for child. Sometimes parents can sometimes be preparing to fight to get what they think their child needs, and be adversarial. Can spend much of consultation time to get the parent onside. Have to be careful to not reinforce the idea that the parent thinks they need to push harder to get what they want. Explains that she wouldn’t do for someone else’s child what she wouldn’t do for any of her own. That can be a powerful message for a parent. If that doesn’t convince them then she has to start thinking about social workers: is there child abuse, is the parent drunk or stoned. |
1.01.44- 1.02.30 |
Why People may be reluctant to go to Hospital Down to resources: can’t afford taxi, no one to mind children, don’t want to go to CUH Cork University Hospital. Often single mums, mums without social supports, or trying to work and mind children. Physical upheaval is difficult. Logistically and economically difficult for parents. Example from Gurranabraher. |
1.02.30- 1.04.58 |
What it is like to work in Grattan Street Unique. Communal building, sense of community. Even people that you don’t deal with clinically you get to know which is important. Buildings are about the people in them not just the services they provide. Physicality of the building- open gallery- you can see & hear who is there. Would prefer it if was a warner building. Survivor bonding over the deficiencies of the building. Problems with parking. People say they work in Grattan Street not in podiatry. |
1.04.58- 1.06.24 |
Parking Small area for parking, not big enough for all the people who work there. Have to move your car to let people out. Didn’t park in the car park when working a half-day because wouldn’t be able to get out. School and houses also use the parking area and they can get cross if they are blocked. |
1.06.24- 1.09.12 |
Past of the Building Quaker meeting house. Building is set up like a church- entrance with arch and sweeping staircases, ceiling roses, curved picture rails. Awareness of the thickness of the walls and windows, not the typical shape for an office building or healthcare centre. Stone plaques outside in the parking area which commemorate the building. Was a dispensary from the 1940s one of the school nurses on the list of interviewees has a friend whose father was the dispenser or pharmacist there. Some of the came to Grattan Street as children for speech and language therapy. No anecdotes about when the lights went out or when it flooded. Cultural understanding of dispensary is that it was a publicly funded pharmacy but that they were fairly grim places for the ordinary not the great and the good. Lots of rooms and big building. |
1.09.12- 1.11.37 |
Weddings in the Registry in Grattan Street Other part of the building is the registry office at the front where people get married. Weddings out the front when coming to work. Children crying and elderly people. Swathe of human life. Unusual to see weddings in the urban work environment which makes everyone smile. And she will miss that when they move. Thinks other employees will have stories and anecdotes. |
1.11.37- 1.15.00 |
Paper & Documents in Grattan Street No one would believe how much paper is in the building. No one removes paper because no one knows who it belongs to. Paper based system for records. Accretions of paper. Shared office space where very little is thrown away. Extraordinary volume of paper created and used. Referrals done on duplicate books with carbon copy. Referral books for services which no longer exist- going back as far as the 1970. Old computers unused. Random boxes of leaflets. |
1.15.00- 1.18.10 |
Words to Describe Grattan Street and its future Community. Resilience. Service. If it was a dog it would be a Labrador, and old smelly one with bad teeth that farts a lot! A pet that everyone loves. Would hate to see the building closed and empty. Sense of spirit in the building. Understands that Quakers signed over the building with the view that it would be used for health services to the community. There’s no disabled access or toilets at present. Buckets in kitchen when it rains. Won’t do well if it is left empty and cold. Community based health resource rather than offices and admin. |
1.18.10- 1.22.13 |
Future of Services moving from Grattan Street Services moving to St Mary’s health campus. Podiatry moving to St Mary’s. PHN have moved already. Vaccination will move to St Mary’s. Eye clinic will move to St Finbarr’s. Dental has gone to Finbarr’s. Unsure about European Health Cards. Home Care may stay here. Marriages will stay. They have had little information about the services. Understands the complexity of project managing the move. Eye clinic will be physically remote from St. Mary’s. Lose sense of networks even though you can still pick up the phone. Lose contacts and networks and personally knowing people in other services. Personal knowledge of how other people work. It gives you more information about how to triage or perceive a referral when you know the people. Anything that interferes with getting information relevant to the patient and decision-making will make her job slightly harder. |
1.22.13- 1.25.19 |
Sense of Patients’ Perspectives Some clinic space may have to be kept in Grattan Street because of the most vulnerable patients in the area eg. from Edel House and newly arrived immigrants, and people who have moved out of direct provision. Families where English might not be first language and from backgrounds where there might be poor healthcare. Travel may be difficult for these patients, especially going “up the hill” to St Mary’s. Will advocate strongly to keep a clinic in Grattan Street- it’s easier to move 1 doctor to see 30 patients than vice versa, and do not need any specialised equipment. Grattan Street is a disaster for people with cars- St Mary’s is much better it has parking, space and coffee shops. Ensure that better services elsewhere don’t leave more vulnerable patients behind. |
1.25.19- 1.27.47 |
Comparison between Grattan Street and St. Mary’s St Mary’s will have: heating, lifts disabled toilets, large waiting areas, easy access. [Edith’s phone vibrates during this section] In Grattan Street if you are on crutches you can’t come to work. St Mary’s will fix these problems. Change is hard. [Edith’s phone vibrates during this section] With a new start if gives the staff a chance to effect the culture of the new building. Everyone in the building making small inputs. Christmas lunch potluck and baby showers in Grattan Street for which there is no policy or permission required people organised it themselves- autonomy and power. |
1.27.47- 1.31.31 |
Culture of the New Building & Importance of Admin People need to feel they have some autonomy of their workplace eg. the signs in Grattan Street which people put up without needing permission. Every clerical and admin staff can hear the patients who come into Grattan Street so they understand that they are not a piece of paper or a number. Further away people are from the person they provide the worse the service provision. Service lives and dies on its administrative staff. When admin staff goes on holidays the clinical staff are bereft! Importance of admin staff even though their role can be minimised. But in Grattan Street there is a good balance. St Mary’s may be isolated in separate rooms. |
1.31.31- 1.33.02 |
What Makes Good Admin Support? Patience. Being able to spin so many plates. First point of contact for people who use the service. People who understand that it’s really important. Although HSE gets a bad reputation every admin staff has been helpful and gone above and beyond. Celine in Grattan Street is very patient. |
1.33.02- 1.35.14 |
Patient Expectations of St Mary’s Big scary, bewildering building. Hope that people will be made to feel welcome. Scale of foyer area is colossal and may be overwhelming. Community should have some autonomy over the building in the same way the staff should. Comfortable seats and accessible baby changing facilities may be enough to make people feel welcome. |
1.35.14-1.38.08 |
Centralised Canteen Would like to see centralised canteen for the staff with access to healthy food. Small things become important. Easy to walk around and access healthy food. Sense that the community can use the space- not much green space on the northside. Chance to look at a different model of healthcare. Moaning is easy and can create a toxic culture if things never change. Small kitchen room on St Mary’s health campus. St Finbarr’s has a centralised canteen but CUH doesn’t. Give people healthy options on site. |
1.38.08-1.40.43 |
Community connection with Grattan Street more generally Edith has little interaction with Middle Parish community. Sees people coming and going from Middle Parish Community Centre and from the SHARE Centre, may help them across the road. Very little interaction which she finds quite sad. Would know some of the support workers in Edel House through working with them and phone calls. Reality of life is everyone is very busy. No funding for other community outreach projects. May run ante-natal classes in Grattan Street which would be good. The more engaged the community can be with the building the more likely they will be to turn up to their GP appointment or diabetic nurse appointment. |
1.40.43-1.43.40 |
Reflection choosing Medicine Would not want any of her children to do medicine. Comes at a big cost. Have to work 90 hour weeks and tell mother that their babies had died while her friends were traveling and going to parties. Have to go through hard parts of job to get to a role that you like. Came first in paediatrics in UCC please don’t tell Prof Carney/Kearney that she only went to about 2 paeds lectures! But spent a lot of time in the wards. Children are direct and Edith likes that. Interview Ends |
He describes his routine on school days, attending St Aloysius school and awareness of tenement houses en route. All the family except his father who was traveling returned for a big meal at lunch time prepared by a local woman who worked for them. Always ate fish on Friday. Recalls respectability being very important.
He recalls the Haggart or “Haggy Field” at the bottom of Wyses Hill where “ponnies” or chamber pots were emptied.
He remembers family adversities: death of his mother, father’s heart attack and his brother’s autism.
He outlines more of his family history: paternal grandfather involved in construction of Fitzgerald’s park and the 1902 Cork Exhibition, maternal grandfather Cronin was a cattle dealer, Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road may be named after him.
He mentions pawn shops and how the family christening cups would “go missing” and be located in the local pawn. Also recalls a “shawlie” asking him to fill her a jug of porter from a bar as she did not want to be seen going inside herself.
He describes his Christian Brothers secondary school, the violence of corporal punishment, the teachers and cycling to and from school. Discusses the emphasis on rugby at the school, the elitism of this and the uniform. Reflects how in retrospect the school failed to address personal or emotional problems the pupils had. Mentions the one-day-a-week school nearby. Describes the Eglinton Baths.
Talks about studying for the Leaving Cert at Holy Trinity College with “Doc Payne” before attending UCC. Recalls studying and socialising at university before outlining his further medical training, specific cases in hospitals (North Infirmary, CUH (Cork University Hospital) and St. Finbarr’s) and ultimate career trajectory towards becoming a GP.
Reflects on improvements in medical care including vaccines, nutrition, public health and improving survival rates for many diseases. Remembers delivering his first baby and reviving a child who died from cardiac arrest.
Describes ultimately working on Grand Parade as a GP in the surgery of Dr Michael Cagney who had fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Discusses making house calls in “The Marsh” area, and the treatment of psychiatric problems.
Finally, Derek reflects on his career, the sense of guilt and hypervigilance instilled in his medical training, and how mistakes are made when not following your intuition.
]]>Originally from Winter’s Hill, Derek describes his home and family: siblings, grandmother, his GP mother and his father who worked in insurance. He outlines his mother’s tasks and equipment as a GP.
He describes his routine on school days, attending St Aloysius school and awareness of tenement houses en route. All the family except his father who was traveling returned for a big meal at lunch time prepared by a local woman who worked for them. Always ate fish on Friday. Recalls respectability being very important.
He recalls the Haggart or “Haggy Field” at the bottom of Wyses Hill where “ponnies” or chamber pots were emptied.
He remembers family adversities: death of his mother, father’s heart attack and his brother’s autism.
He outlines more of his family history: paternal grandfather involved in construction of Fitzgerald’s park and the 1902 Cork Exhibition, maternal grandfather Cronin was a cattle dealer, Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road may be named after him.
He mentions pawn shops and how the family christening cups would “go missing” and be located in the local pawn. Also recalls a “shawlie” asking him to fill her a jug of porter from a bar as she did not want to be seen going inside herself.
He describes his Christian Brothers secondary school, the violence of corporal punishment, the teachers and cycling to and from school. Discusses the emphasis on rugby at the school, the elitism of this and the uniform. Reflects how in retrospect the school failed to address personal or emotional problems the pupils had. Mentions the one-day-a-week school nearby. Describes the Eglinton Baths.
Talks about studying for the Leaving Cert at Holy Trinity College with “Doc Payne” before attending UCC. Recalls studying and socialising at university before outlining his further medical training, specific cases in hospitals (North Infirmary, CUH (Cork University Hospital) and St. Finbarr’s) and ultimate career trajectory towards becoming a GP.
Reflects on improvements in medical care including vaccines, nutrition, public health and improving survival rates for many diseases. Remembers delivering his first baby and reviving a child who died from cardiac arrest.
Describes ultimately working on Grand Parade as a GP in the surgery of Dr Michael Cagney who had fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Discusses making house calls in “The Marsh” area, and the treatment of psychiatric problems.
Finally, Derek reflects on his career, the sense of guilt and hypervigilance instilled in his medical training, and how mistakes are made when not following your intuition.
0.00.00 - 0.01.58 |
Family and House Grew up on Winter’s Hill between Blarney Street and Wyses Hill on northside of Cork. The third of 4 children all delivered by caesarean section. His mother was very small and the local GP, one of the first “lady doctors” of which there were only 4 or 5 at the time, and they covered for each other. Father worked in insurance and had a good job as assistant manager of insurance company. Mother worked full-time. Always family member in the house to help out, including a grandmother. An old male relative lived in the 3rd floor of the house. That wasn’t unusual, it wasn’t always one room per person. But it solved childminding issues. |
0.01.58 - 0.02.20 |
Grandmother Remembers grandmother’s lap, her dark blue apron with designs on it and knitting needles. She died when he was about 3. |
0.02.20 - 0.04.33 |
House and Mother’s GP Surgery 3 storey detached house, a bit unusual. Further back from the road than others, with passage in called “the passage”, hen house in front and back of house, which was normal at the time. Mother did house calls in the morning. In the evening they had to go to the dining room because the front room became the waiting room and she had her surgery upstairs. Learned young how to answer the phone. People might arrive with urine in a Paddy whiskey bottle. In retrospect she was checking pregnancies or urinary infections. He was frightened of her steriliser- an electric pot with instruments in it. Syringe needles were sharpened on an oil stone before being put in steriliser, and no one seemed to get infections. |
0.04.33 - 0.07.59 |
Routine/ Typical Day at Home & School Walked down Wyses Hill to school in St Al’s (St Aloysius) which was a girl’s school. Teachers Miss Brett, Miss Curran (Chris Curran’s sister maybe), Sister Aloysius in first class which was more challenging because she didn’t like the boys. There was two thirds girls in the class. At that time this was normal practice. Walked across Vincent’s bridge across by the Mercy Hospital and across by lark’s bridge. Recalls where the labour exchange is now (Intreo Centre Hanover Street) there were beautiful Georgian Houses (tenement houses) in terrible condition with lots of washing out and women out talking to each other and several generations playing, and that was normal. No one thought there was anything right or wrong with it, it was just the way it was. Went home for lunch, and often had soup and a main course especially in the winter time. A lighter meal in the evening. All the family returned home for lunch except his father who might be traveling to Bantry or Skibbereen which was a long way at the time. A lady prepared the meals for the family. People who worked in the house lived locally and were like members of the family. They might work for 2 or 3 years and move on, often when they got married. Someone else would come then, often by word of mouth, perhaps through his mother’s GP practice. Always ate fish on a Friday which he didn’t like. Suspects there was a rota for meals. ‘Meat and two vegetables’ was always the meal. Felt privileged to have that as not everyone could, and there was a good bit of poverty around. Recalls a “soundbite” from Blarney Street: “Johnny come in for your rasher and two eggs!” There was a great respectability, everyone respected everyone else and there wasn’t any talking down to people- it wasn’t acceptable.
|
0.07.59 - 0.09.49 |
Playing near Home & the Haggard Didn’t get out of the house all that much. Played football outside the door for a while. Area called “the Haggy” across from where they lived, the Haggard* which was a kind of wasteland roughly where fancy apartments at bottom of Wyses hill are now. People used to dump their “ponnies”** in the old days. It wasn’t regarded as a place you’d go, it was just a steep hill. But people went there with their (chamber) pots. But the stigma of it not being a clean place remained even maybe 100 years after running water and sewage came in. So when playing football if the ball went down the haggy no one wanted to fetch it. Was not allowed to go out to play football, mother would have had a “conniption fit” had she known they were out doing that. [*Haggard or Haggart: A farmyard or small enclosed field; a vegetable patch or kitchen garden. Or area adjacent to the farm yard or what once was a farm yard. Traditionally this was an enclosed area on a farm for stacking hay, grain or other fodder. (sources: Wiktionary, meathfieldnames.com] **[ponny or ponnie: earthenware or metal pot or mug (Source: A Dictionary of Hiberno-English: The Irish Use of English ed. Terence Dolan)] |
0.09.49 - 0.12.43 |
Family, Changes and Adversity Mother died when he was 13. Dad had had 1st heart attack previous year and he had retired from work and started an insurance brokerage as a hobby. Sister Catherine did medicine and went to America and didn’t want to return. Different doctors tried to keep mother’s GP practice going. Older brother in insurance now retired. Younger brother Michael born hypothyroid and had severe autism slept in his room and found it normal to share a room with a practically non-verbal brother. Remarks on how people what people can accept as normal even if inconvenient and that people are strong in the face of adversity. Discusses the resentment and rage which is normalised by the internet which has also contributed to the polarisation of politics “it’s as if only extremes are correct”. History suggests consensus is what works. The manipulation of social media has contributed to this phenomenon. |
0.12.43 - 0.14.47 |
Mother, her GP work and her car Mother was very bubbly. Black hair with white stripe in the centre very careful about appearance hair was always done properly. Very hard worker with patients and at home. Expected high level of neatness and cleanness. She had a bubble car maybe 200cc with a door in the front. She covered other GPs. She went to Hettyfield and left 10 year old Derek doing his homework in the bubblecar. A 13 year old girl asked what it was and said “ours is a Consul Cortina”. The first time Derek felt his car might not be adequate. Bubble car had two seats at front one at back entered from the front. Recalls 4 children and his mother in the car! That was normal. |
0.14.47 - 0.16.53 |
Mother & Father: Backgrounds and relatives Mother and father put great store in education. She was youngest of 11 and one of the first to go to university. Dad was youngest of 17 children many in the family had been engineers. Derek’s grandfather had been married twice. Derek’s paternal grandfather died in 1917 before his father was born. Paternal grandfather was a builder/engineer/contractor had a lot to do with building of Fitzgerald’s Park, he has photographs of the grandfather with his workers dressed in Victorian outfits for the Cork Exhibition (1902 probably). Maternal grandfather was cattle-dealer Cronin. They lived up in Fair Hill which was subject to a compulsory purchase order in the 1960s by Cork corporation. Google maps lists Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road, assumes that this was the same field. Knew relatives at top of Hollyhill who were farming until Hollyhill as we know it was build. |
0.16.53 - 0.18.04 |
Pawnshops and stolen goods Two pawnshops on Lavitt’s Quay and one at bottom of Patrick’s Hill. Doesn’t recall who ran them. The Christening Cups were stolen a few times by the same person from the waiting room in the house and were located by the Gardaí in the local pawn shop. |
0.18.04 - 0.21.36 |
Secondary School: transport, teachers, shawlies, baths Went to Christian Brother’s College (CBC) after St Aloysius, his grandfather, father and brother had gone there. One teacher Mr Richard McCarthy known as Dicky Rashers called Derek by his father’s name because he had taught him as well. The story with Dicky Rashers was that he had dietary issues and after Christmas an announced that he had had rashers. He was a nice man. If it was raining they got the number 14 bus down Wyses Hill which came every 20 minutes. They used to hide because Dicky Rashers would offer them a lift which they didn’t want from a teacher. Also cycled to school. Got wheels caught in railway track going to Eglinton Baths. Those railway bridges opened until the 1970s. Goods trains and Guinness trains used to cross over them. Cycled up Patrick’s Hill to get to the Christian’s rugby field (Landsdowne). Cycled down the hill when it was raining, breaks failed and stopped where Brown Thomas is now. Only 4 or 5 cars on Blarney Street at the time. When 15 a shawlie stopped him near the Templeacre Bar (Gurranebraher Road) and she gave him a pint jug and asked him get her Guinness from the snug. She would not be seen going into the pub but wanted her Guinness. |
0.21.36 - 0.24.09 |
Secondary school teachers Christians was somewhat elitist which a lot of people were not comfortable with. Many teachers were old and not qualified teachers. Mr Murphy taught him art for leaving cert, but he had been teaching junior infants. He was very small his feet would not touch the ground when sitting on a desk. Mr Townshend music teacher and great musician. All characters. Violence of corporal punishment, queuing around the classroom to answer questions on Geography or Latin. If you weren’t very academic you got a lot of beatings on the hands. Some of those less academic pupils became very successful businessmen. The Christian brother told the boys in the B class to be nice to boys in the C class because they might need to get a job from them later. |
0.24.09 - 0.26.04 |
Secondary Schools in general, elitism & ‘One Day a Week School’ The uniform was part of the school’s elitism. There was a school nearby “the Wana” (one day a week) and there was a clear difference between them and CBC. CBC had disciplined and scheduled classes all day. The one day a week school pupils were obeying the law, 12 or 13 years old selling papers to make money. They had to attend school until a certain age. People with dyslexia were beaten and treated with contempt. Scoil Mhuire girls private school was nearby and quite posh. Around the corner was St Angela’s was less posh. Rivalry between Christians and Pres (PBC, Presentation Brothers College). |
0.26.04 - 0.27.22 |
Secondary School: lack of empathy, attitudes towards sports Was in first year of secondary school when mother died. There was no recognition of that in school and he dropped from A class to B class. A little help would have gone a long way. In retrospect there were probably a number of pupils with ongoing issues which were never addressed by the school, while the emphasis was on playing rugby. Rugby in Cork was elitist then too. Derek joined Tramore Athletic soccer club. A cousin played tennis quite well and a Christian brother said “why wouldn’t he take up a boy’s game?” |
0.27.22 - 0.28.44 |
Eglinton Baths, swimming, chipper Eglinton Baths had a boys’ pool and a girls’ pool. Probably 25 yards. White tiles with balcony around each pool. Communal hot showers, but the pool itself was freezing and stinking of chlorine. “It wasn’t unusual to be blue and wet!”. Went home via Maylor Street and went Matt Kiely’s chip shop to warm up a bit. |
0.28.44 - 0.29.30 |
Changes after mother’s death, father’s career Younger brother went into full-time care when his mother died. And his dad was involved in local politics and trying to run a business. He was a Fine Gael councillor for over 20 years in the North Central part of Cork which would have been unusual. He was involved in the health board and the building of the regional hospital. He was chairman of the hospital board for years and of the health board. |
0.29.30 - 0.31.36 |
Repeating the Leaving Cert with Dr Paye Derek always assumed that he would be a doctor. He was offered a place in dentistry in college which he declined. His dad got him into the Holy Trinity College on Washington Street “Doc Paye’s” which was a military camp for getting your leaving certificate. He is grateful to Dr Paye and Miss Paye. For this school your hair was cut very tight, you wore a humiliating uniform, “you arrived on time or you didn’t arrive at all”. Mixed class, boys wore black, girls wore red with tartan. Every class was structured 45 minutes and took serious notes. They had studied the leaving cert papers and knew what needed to be learned. Still sees Dr Paye around and she must be a good age. |
0.31.38 - 0.34.15 |
First experience of University: courses and social and sport life After he resat the leaving cert he went to UCC in a course call First Common Science. This was an experiment when Pre-Med and Pre-Dent courses were done away with. In First Common Science you competed for your course. Had little experience of social mixing, and enjoyed going to the Kampus Kitchen (Campus Kitchen) to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee, and drink beer in the evening if you could afford it. First Common Science was not a problem because of the work done in Dr Paye’s. 60 got into medicine, 20 into dentistry and the rest did other science degrees maybe dairy science and science. Glad he got to mix and get to know more people. Thinks that his son who went to Trinity to do medicine probably missed out on that aspect of social life as he went straight into medicine. Small group of people in his course. There used to be rugby matches in the quarry in UCC where the Boole Library is now. The pitch was very muddy in winter. Dentistry were not able to field a team as there were not enough men doing the course. Playing the quarry you were just as good as everyone else because everyone was terrible. |
0.34.15 - 0.37.39 |
University: playing cards, betting, debating society, studying For the first year or two Kampus Kitchen was the place to play cards and a lot of money was won and lost there. He stopped playing cards because he saw people lose their grants. He once lost the money to be spent on a shirt for the Med Ball and had to attend with a pink shirt. As regards clubs and societies looking back he thinks he should have attended the Philosoph (UCC Philosophical Society, college debating society). People who were from Cork probably got less involved in clubs and societies, whereas those living on or near campus would have become more involved. Thinks the Philosoph would have broadened his education, mentions how Theo Dorgan was there during his time in college and thinks that Theo got a broader education compared to the narrower field of medicine. His education was greatly advanced in 2nd Year Medicine while in the library fretting about a physiology exam maybe 2 weeks before the exam. A mature student around 35 years old told him “the information in a book is inversely proportional to its size”.
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0.37.39 - 0.39.37 |
What’s needed to become a doctor and to practice No one asks him as a doctor where he came in his class, and it wouldn’t make a difference anyway. Many people who were academically gifted would not have been suited to being doctors. Is concerned that a medical education which requires strong left-sided brain skills to remember and regurgitate material may not produce great communicators and not great doctors. Someone with an average IQ could be a very good doctor. The economics of being a doctor suggest that maybe it should not be so attractive for people and they would be better in IT or science. Once you qualify in medicine that is only the beginning: you have to graft for jobs, get relevant experience and only then try to make a living. It’s just a primary degree unlike dentistry where you are a qualified dentist once you complete the degree |
0.39.37 - 0.42.48 |
Working in North Infirmary: learning, some memorable cases Went to the North Infirmary. Lovely hospital to work in, was very well-treated. Very hard work. 3 medical interns, 3 surgery interns, maybe 2 SHO (Senior House Officer) and 2 Registrars. Recalls first night he was on for surgery when a patient from motorbike accident was to arrive in and the SHO left before the patient arrived. Nurses were excellent. Learned how to do things. Learned how to recognise cases that were too hot to handle. When on call started 9am Friday finished Monday at 5. There were very few GPs out of hours so got big queues in North Infirmary. Went to bed 4am one Sunday morning and he was told there was a young man with chest pain. The young man looked pale and sweaty and was wearing ex-army jacket which was “all the rage” at the time. Discovered that the man had been playing darts, had gotten a dart in the back and had a chest full of blood. Learned to be careful and not take things at face value. Another night a man was brought in by his friends. At the time Match of the Day (football highlights and analysis TV programme on BBC) was at 7pm or 8pm. The man had been in the pub and “his leg was swinging in the breeze”, he had fallen off a bar stool and broken his hip around 7:30pm but had stayed in the pub until Match of the Day was over before coming to hospital. |
0.42.48 - 0.51.04 |
Changes in healthcare: preventative medicine, vaccination, alcohol Suggests people may have been tougher in the past. Then reflects on the improvements in medicine and that “the good old days weren’t so good”, people didn’t live as long, not vaccinated, poor nutrition. As nutrition improved children became taller than their parents. Improvements in prognosis. Enthusiastic about preventative medicine. Although the medical card system did not take that into account, doctors were not paid for vaccinations on the medical card but they did it anyway. Gay Byrne encouraged people to get the measles vaccine. And there was a change in the demographics of the measles incidents over two years after that. Didn’t see cases of measles for 15-20 years, and it only reappeared when anti-vaxers (anti vaccination campaigners) appeared. Thinks it’s a scandal. Vaccination for measles is not individual it is based on herd immunity it requires 80-90% of the population to be vaccinated or the vulnerable will get it: people with immunodeficiency, leukaemia, chemotherapy. Discusses the changes in gender demographics in relation to cardio-vascular diseases and risk factors. There had been an economic difficulty with alcohol-you could only afford a small amount of alcohol (or cigarettes). But now alcohol is cheaper and cigarettes are more expensive. Mentions the trend of pre-drinking. Suggests problems of alcohol appear to occur further north of the equator. Discusses the off-licenses in Sweden where you had to order alcohol a bit like the system of ordering products in Argos. If your order for alcohol exceeded accepted level you were not served. This didn’t prevent people drinking as they made their own. Discusses the positive effect of smoking ban and the way people use the “nanny state” argument to oppose basic public health measures. Talks about the improvements in treatments and survival rates particularly for cancers and cardio vascular diseases. Compares this to reactions of indignation. Points out the hidden nature of preventative health care which can be effective but is rarely seen of credited. Preventative care is also less well understood compared with waiting times for doctors or ambulances, number of hospital beds. Thinks the question should be about quality of life and what can be done to improve it. |
0.51.04 - 0.52.47 |
North Infirmary working routine, cost of hospitals In north infirmary there was a doctors’ room and dining room where you had your own seat and there was a colour television which was unusual at the time. 6 interns. You worked every day and every third night as well and every third weekend. But if someone was on holidays you had to work every second one. The cost of a bed per night in the hospital was £80 and when it was closed the cost in other hospitals was £200-£300 per night. Discusses the merits of centres of excellence and lower-tech hospitals. |
0.52.47 - 0.57.07 |
Further training in St Finbarr’s & CUH, reviving a child, CPR After North Infirmary did obs and gynae (obstetrics and gynaecology) in St Finbarr’s Hospital and CUH (Cork University Hospital). Great training, lovely, practical and kind obstetricians. A small nurse Sister Tutor called him at night for a mother giving birth. The nurse cleverly directed him in delivering the baby with a forceps while making it seem like he was the one doing all the work. “Without the nurses we’d be nowhere”. His daughter is a nurse and sees how knowledgeable and capable they are at the coal face. Unwise for doctors to ignore what nurses say. The importance of everyone being on the same team. Recalls an A and E (accident and emergency) nurse who had all the equipment ready while the doctor was looking up what was to be done. Recalls a child around 7 years old who was dead from cardiac arrest after getting electrocuted on a Saturday afternoon. They used intubation, put up a drip, drugs, cardiac massage, and defibrillation. They didn’t have time to look up dosages they divided them amounts by 4 for a child. They had a good success rate at reviving dead bodies in North Infirmary- community response is key today. “an ambulance on its way doesn’t keep your heart beating.” Believes everyone should learn the basics of CPR. Recalls CPR in his GP practice. |
0.57.07 - 0.58.50 |
Further medical training and useful A & E experience After obs and gynae he did paediatrics, psychiatry, and a year in A and E where he learned that a little smile went a long way. Talked about how to politely and carefully deal with cases which were not serious enough to be in A and E. Public who might be waiting all day did not see the very serious cases that were happening out of sight. It was good training for a GP practice. |
0.58.50 - 1.04.21 |
Own GP practice, Dr Cagney’s GP practice & Spanish Civil War, Set up own GP practice on northside in their house. Found it lonely because there were so few patients coming in. He then practiced with Dr Michael Cagney until he got a stroke. Dr Michael Cagney was a remarkable man, big burly, chain-smoking man very kind to people. He would tell people to give up cigarettes while he was smoking at the same time. He was doing surgery and he returned to GP practice because he father had been running a practice but became ill. When Dr Michael Cagney sat his leaving cert he was too young to go to college so his dad and General Eoin O’Duffy decided to send him to fight in the Spanish Civil War. He rarely spoke about his time in that war, and must have been traumatised by it. He probably thought he was going out “to help the raped nuns.” Many people from Ireland went to fight in that war. And it was not that long ago. Reflects on children today being used as soldiers in other countries, and being involved in drug gangs in Ireland and on those who leave to fight for Al Qaeda today and crusaders in the past. Dr Michael Cagney was probably born around 1920. The practice was in 51 Grand Parade, 2 floors up. It was a very good practice, he was very ethical and kept very good notes on large A4 file in alphabetical order which was probably unusual for the time. They used the Merck Manual which was an encyclopaedia of therapeutics. You could ring surgeons for advice. There was a great sense of responsibility and great collegiality. Refers to the changing ways of doctors referring patients to hospitals. |
1.04.21 - 1.06.09 |
First day in new GP Practice, changes in care, responses to bad cases Remembers first day in Dr Michael Cagney’s practice which was in a back room and patients wanted to see Dr Cagney rather than Derek: “With respect to you doctor I’d like to see the doctor!” After time people came to see him specifically. Did everything, including: antenatal, postnatal and smears- it was perfectly normal for a male doctor to do a smear in those days before there were headline cases of doctors who did the wrong thing. Derek became deskilled in that area because it was too much of a risk. Suggests that new practices are often introduced in response to hard cases. Mentions the response to the Dr Harold Shipman murders in England where GPs had to list the number of patients they had who died in one year to prevent a similar case. One GP made a mistake in their statistics and rang up to clarify them, but was told no one would ever read the statistics so it didn’t matter. Says that lots of information is gathered but never really used. |
1.06.09 - 1.08.05 |
Learning on the job, diseases not disappearing Dr Michael Cagney learned surgery but had to learn paediatrics on the job. Thinks most people of average intelligence can learn very quickly when put in a situation. Recalls a patient with a rheumatic heart and the hospital intern found it hard to believe. Derek says “diseases don’t go away they’re just waiting for you to forget that they happen”. Thinks there will be more outbreaks of diseases due to lack of vaccination. Polio outbreak in Amsterdam 20 years ago. “diseases don’t go away because you are sophisticated or rich or white.” |
1.08.05- 1.09.51 |
Attitudes to vaccination, TB Treatments in Cork Discusses the positive attitude towards vaccination in the past. People had seen children with whooping cough and adults who had holes in their lungs because of it. Doctors had patients who had limps from polio epidemic in Cork in 1950s, knows of a patient who died of post-polio syndrome in their 70s. TB was common but few admitted to having it- stigma associated with it comparable to leprosy or HIV. Mentions Mr Hickey in Sarsfield’s Court who was able to collapse lungs and do pioneering surgery to treat TB. Thinks vaccination is question of statistics not opinion. |
1.09.51 - 1.12.20 |
Routine as GP: house calls, pager, patients not going to hospital Typical day started around 9am. Might do 10 house calls in a day because people didn’t go to hospital or if they did not for very long. House calls were also more common back then because of the lack of transport options for patients. Discusses the pager service, finding a public pay phone and how getting in contact with a patient an hour after they used the pager was considered fast. Dealt with a lot of pathology at home if patients did not wish to go to hospital. Could visit a patient at home every day for a week or two if they had a serious condition. It was very gratifying when patients recovered. |
1.12.20 - 1.15.06 |
Public Health Nurse care Had little contact with the Grattan Street dispensary and health centre. Mentions the dental service there, ophthalmologist Dr O’Sullivan and public health nurses (PHNs). When doing the membership of general practice in London he was not believed when he said there were only 2 PHNs for Cork city centre. PHNs medical care had a physical, psychological and social side. Knows that dispensary doctors had limited treatments: “blue tablets, red tablets and liquids”. They worked before the medical card system, which he thinks came in the 1970s. When Derek became a doctor the system was ‘fee per item’ you were paid a small amount for each thing you did as a GP. Everything had to be written in a duplicate book. |
1.15.06 - 1.17.52 |
‘The Marsh’ memories. Case of anaemic man Dad was in the St Vincent De Paul and many in the Marsh were living with 2 or 3 families (in some case 5 families) living in the same big Georgian Houses. Many of these were knocked down in the 50s and 60s and many moved to Cathedral Road and Fair Hill. Some families had lived for generations in the Marsh. Recalls visiting a man a PHN was concerned about. Man lived with his dog and had a picture of Elvis on one wall and Jesus on the other. He was very anaemic but wouldn’t go to hospital. The remedy was some injections of B12, iron and oral folic acid and Meals on Wheels. Believes the problem was nutritional- living on spam sandwiches. |
1.17.52 - 1.20.35 |
People with psychiatric problems lived in the community in the past, now are being hospitalised Some people who lived in the city centre had come from elsewhere where may have been rejected. Some had mild schizophrenia or personality problems. They came to live in the anonymity of town. Many muddled along living in bedsits and had as much company as they wished. Now similar cases are put in hospital maybe in situations that do not suit them. Discusses the idea of putting anyone with psychiatric problems into the same category. Compares how we treat other illnesses- there is no “abdominal ward” which would treat a huge array of different illnesses, these are catered for separately. Similarly he thinks it doesn’t make sense to put people who are depressed or hearing voices in the same place as those with an eating disorder. Does not think the problem will be solved by additional money alone. |
1.20.35 - 1.21.40 |
Ability of people to cope. Publican ran bar walking on her knees Highlights the extraordinary ability of people to cope. Recalls an elderly lady (who probably had polio) and ran a bar walking on her knees on a bench behind the counter. Thinks that today there is more a demand for everything to be perfect and this can lead to unhappiness. |
1.21.40 - 1.24.15 |
Reflects on career, mistakes and medical training Thinks that when he made mistakes it was because he had ignored the inner voice that suggested something didn’t smell right. One of the things that was instilled in learning to be a doctor was basic guilt. The default was guilt, the sense that if something went wrong it must be your fault. That is the downside of medicine: trained into a guilt-trip. Makes you vigilant all the time which can be tiring. Wouldn’t change anything, felt privileged and happy to meet people and make a connection and friends. It wasn’t possible to be friends with your patients, there had to be a dividing line, though he is friends with them now. You couldn’t do business with or have a relationship or a social life with a patient. Peggy Cronin O’Connell and Vincent O’Connell were his parents’ names. Interview Ends 1.24.15 |
Recalls her first holy communion where one girl arrived late and had to experience the ceremony on her own.
Speaks of some childhood games and playing and picnicking by the sea.
Enjoyed school at Loreto Convent Balbriggan even though the nuns were strict. English was her favourite subject.
Talks about her desire to become a nurse and her experiences in Dublin hospitals. Describes the strict discipline and hierarchy in hospitals including the way superiors exercised power over how nurses were required to dress and commented on their physical appearance with impunity. Jane outlines the negative impacts of this culture including fear of making a mistake and the incentive to cover up of mistakes. Outlines a rare challenge to authority when nurses boycotted a graduation ceremony. Mentions the role of religion in hospitals.
Outlines her time spend nursing in USA, a romantic relationship and her emigrant experience there before returning to Ireland to pursue Public Health Nursing (PHN), which she prefers as it feels she is making a difference.
Discusses moving to Cork and her early positive impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre and its staff. Speaks about the Grattan Street building itself, including its sense of history, graffiti on its outside walls, and its convenient location in the city centre and proximity to other services. Describes the problems with car parking and the resulting tensions with neighbours.
Jane speaks of her PHN work in Blackpool and a court case involving a child and social worker. Outlines the characteristic of a good PHN, and how much of the role is learned through experience. Regrets the turn her career has taken towards management and away from dealing with patients.
Discusses the 1999 nursing strike which lead to a new role for an immunisation specialist which she was hired for. Describes how colleagues insisted on referring to her by her previous title, refusing to acknowledge her promotion and equal status. Describes her role including overseeing Swine Flu vaccinations.
Explains the vaccine cold storage system, the sense of responsibility for ordering them and overseeing them. Tells stories of when vaccines were relocated during a flood to protect them, and when the electricity was monitored during a storm in case the power was cut to the vaccine fridges. Mentions vaccine policies, myths and technological developments.
Outlines her preferred time to move services from Grattan Street to St Mary’s Primary Healthcare Centre Gurranabraher.
]]>Jane grew up in Balbriggan and Skerries County Dublin. Describes her love of the Georgian house her family lived in and her love of old buildings and antiques before they moved to a smaller home.
Recalls her first holy communion where one girl arrived late and had to experience the ceremony on her own.
Speaks of some childhood games and playing and picnicking by the sea.
Enjoyed school at Loreto Convent Balbriggan even though the nuns were strict. English was her favourite subject.
Talks about her desire to become a nurse and her experiences in Dublin hospitals. Describes the strict discipline and hierarchy in hospitals including the way superiors exercised power over how nurses were required to dress and commented on their physical appearance with impunity. Jane outlines the negative impacts of this culture including fear of making a mistake and the incentive to cover up of mistakes. Outlines a rare challenge to authority when nurses boycotted a graduation ceremony. Mentions the role of religion in hospitals.
Outlines her time spend nursing in USA, a romantic relationship and her emigrant experience there before returning to Ireland to pursue Public Health Nursing (PHN), which she prefers as it feels she is making a difference.
Discusses moving to Cork and her early positive impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre and its staff. Speaks about the Grattan Street building itself, including its sense of history, graffiti on its outside walls, and its convenient location in the city centre and proximity to other services. Describes the problems with car parking and the resulting tensions with neighbours.
Jane speaks of her PHN work in Blackpool and a court case involving a child and social worker. Outlines the characteristic of a good PHN, and how much of the role is learned through experience. Regrets the turn her career has taken towards management and away from dealing with patients.
Discusses the 1999 nursing strike which lead to a new role for an immunisation specialist which she was hired for. Describes how colleagues insisted on referring to her by her previous title, refusing to acknowledge her promotion and equal status. Describes her role including overseeing Swine Flu vaccinations.
Explains the vaccine cold storage system, the sense of responsibility for ordering them and overseeing them. Tells stories of when vaccines were relocated during a flood to protect them, and when the electricity was monitored during a storm in case the power was cut to the vaccine fridges. Mentions vaccine policies, myths and technological developments.
Outlines her preferred time to move services from Grattan Street to St Mary’s Primary Healthcare Centre Gurranabraher.
0.00.00 - 0.00.28 |
intro |
0.00.28 - 0.02.41 |
Growing Up in County Dublin Grew up in Balbriggan County Dublin, seaside town between Dublin and Drogheda. When growing up she was allowed to Drogheda to shop by herself but not to Dublin because Drogheda was considered a safer town. [Jane mentions that Drogheda is not considered safe at present this is an allusion to drug gang related violence in Drogheda which was in the news around the time of the interview.] Also mentions Skerries as a seaside town in County Dublin. Went to school in Loreto Convent in Balbriggan at 4 and finished when 17 and refused the nuns’ offer to stay another year. Stayed in the same school for primary and secondary school, the benefit of which is having the same people with you. Had a school reunion about a year previously. Some of her classmates she didn’t recognise, but some of their names she also didn’t recognise. Says she loves Balbriggan. |
0.02.41 - 0.04.28 |
Moving House as Child Balbriggan and Skerries were just 4 miles apart, moved to Skerries when a teenager but considers herself to be from Balbriggan. Rivalry between the two towns and Skerries is considered to be nicer. Balbriggan was more “Wavin pipes”, more industry, Skerries was more for tourists. There was a holiday camp called Red Island that people in Dublin used to go to in Skerries. It was like the holiday camp in Dirty Dancing. [3:27-3:33 Aoife O’Brien who had been interviewed for the Grattan Street Project previously walks into the room at this point.] Skerries would have considered itself snobby as it has a rugby and sailing club. Even though she moved to Skerries she still went to school in Ballbriggan which was “not the done thing”. Her brothers went to school in Skerries and are married and live in Skerries. Bracken Court Hotel in Balbriggan which has been there forever and she remembers going there for her Holy Communion breakfast. |
0.04.28 - 0.07.13 |
Holy Communion Day It was a small group making their holy communion in the convent church rather than the town church. It was special in the sense that there were few children making their communion. Kathleen Gavin was given the wrong time for the communion and turned up an hour late and “the nuns ate her” and the nuns wouldn’t admit that they gave her the wrong time and she had to bring it in the next day to prove it to them. Kathleen still tells that story and is traumatised by it. She had to make her first holy communion by herself. It was a lovely sunny day and they all stood on the steps of the convent for a photograph. Confirmation was made in town. Now people will have a meal out after a communion or confirmation but in Jane’s time that was not always the case. But her aunt who lived next door brought her to the Grand Hotel (now the Bracken Court Hotel Balbriggan) for a lunch/brunch after the ceremony. And this was “a huge deal” because it was not a common occurrence at the time. For confirmation there were a few schools being confirmed at once. And there was a line of boys and a line of girls being confirmed at the same time in the church. All the girls wanted to be kneeling beside John Conway a boy who everyone fancied. |
0.07.13 - 0.10.15 |
Games when growing up She wasn’t big into sport. Lived in a big old haunted house which her grandmother left to her mother. It was near the sea. As children they were allowed onto the rocks by themselves. She played basketball in school but was not very good at it. Didn’t like that kind of confrontation. Played by the sea, it wasn’t a beach but rocks. Picnics and playing. Her dad built a ship in the garden, with a deck and sails. She was a big fan of Enid Blyton books as a child, especially the Secret Seven and the ‘Famous Five’ books. Her dad build them a Secret Seven type hut in the garden. As children they “went on mysteries”. They followed one man in imitation of the Enid Blyton books and decided that he was a smuggler. And they followed him up to a Martello Tower where he happened to be going to urinate. They had more freedom then, allowed to leave in the morning and return in the evening. That was the norm and there wasn’t the supervision that is present today. |
0.10.15 - 0.16.01 |
Old Family House Fancourt: big Georgian house. She hated leaving the house as a child. It was very expensive to keep the house and there were also rates to pay. In addition there were fees to pay for the convent school and there was five children going to school. So they moved to a smaller house in Skerries. Fancourt: Three storey, basement and land attached to it but there was more but it was sold to try to keep the house. Discusses the house and its jointly owned green area with the neighbouring houses. Haunted house: where priests were staying which was her sister’s bedroom- she saw a ghost of a monk. Other stories of ghosts including knocking on doors and foxhunters. Regrets the old furniture was sold, including servants bells. Jane is interested in auctions. |
0.16.01- 0.17.08 |
House in Skerries Small, terrace house. Skerries nice place to live by sea. Brother lived in Brambles estate and bought new house on the skerries terrace. |
0.17.08 - 0.23.13 |
Secondary School Loved school. Regrets being too good and not being bold. Wore green uniform. No street lights and was too far from town to meet friends after school at Loreto Convent. Loved the nuns though they were tough. Grateful to her parents for her education. Loved her friends, the school and its old building. Felt safe. Describes herself as average student not into sports. Few jobs for women when they finished school. English was her favourite subject. Would love to be librarian. Prefers physical books to E-books/Kindle. Pressure on students today at exam time. Criticises the Leaving Certificate points system where students opt for high points courses rather than one they are interested in. Importance of working at something you like: “Hard work won’t kill you but work you hate will” |
0.23.13- 0.26.36 |
Nursing Training & Hunger Strike Incident Jane’s mother had been a nurse. When she finished school there was a shortage of nurses. The applied directly to hospitals for nursing. But hospitals wanted trained staff rather than students. Trained in Jervis Street Hospital where the shopping centre is in Dublin now was a general hospital. Saying about nurses and Dublin hospitals: “Vincent’s snobs, Mater ladies and Jervis Nurses” Recalls riots due to Hunger Strikes. A man pulled a gun on her on O’Connell Street. Night duty on ward on her own, 20-25 beds. 24 rioters and 1 Garda were in the same ward. |
0.26.36 - 0.31.48 |
Wanting to be a Nurse & Early Nursing Experience Played hospital as a child. Always wanted to work in nursing. Has enjoyed much of it. Would not advise anyone to do nursing. Recalls seeing a confused naked man on her first day. Worried crying about giving the wrong medication to patient. Nurse students were also staff. Loved Irish nurses in America when she was their because their training was very practical. Enjoyed her time in St Mary’s Hospital New Jersey USA. Film “FX Murder by Illusion” features the hospital she worked in. |
0.31.48 - 0.34.50 |
Hospital in USA and Differences in Immigrants’ Intention AIDS was a big issue in the hospital in USA Observes that most immigrant groups in USA wanted to stay there but Irish people wanted to return to Ireland. Impact of Irish on the world St Patrick’s Day Parade. Thinks Irish people are patriotic abroad and keen to return home. |
0.34.50 - 0.37.43 |
Discipline in Hospital Difficult senior nurses. The sense of hierarchy. Demeaning and mocking way junior nurses were spoken to was accepted. Jane was referred to as an “anencephalic”, a baby born without part of its head which will soon die. When you knelt down your uniform had to touch the ground. Ward sister demanded to see under Jane’s uniform to see she was wearing a slip under her uniform. Nurses were allowed to wear a cardigan at night but had to take it off in the morning. A nurse went to Saudi Arabia where she was murdered. Thinks they were strict about stupid things. Discipline was important. No one thought to question it. |
0.37.43 - 0.40.58 |
Story of nurses boycotting nursing event Did midwifery in Rotunda. The Scottish matron didn’t hire any of the students but hired Scottish nurses. Jane & fellow midwifery students boycotted the graduation event in protest at this. Matron spoke to them individually. A brave nurse refused to answer any questions unless her union representative. Jane’s class is the only one not to have a group photo because of the boycott. People didn’t defy superiors at the time. |
0.40.58 - 0.42.32 |
Effect of the Strict Discipline Some staff were panicky and nervous about making a mistake. May have incentivised people to cover up mistakes to avoid the repercussions instead of working something out. Matron could make personal remarks about nurses without repercussions: telling a nurse to fix her crooked teeth. |
0.42.32 - 0.44.22 |
Religion in Hospitals No MRSA in those days. Nuns ran a very clean and efficient hospital. Jervis was a Catholic hospital. Rotunda was a Protestant hospital, most of the staff were Catholic and they went to mass, then the Protestants went to service and were given tea and biscuits. |
0.44.22 - 0.50.00 |
Working as a Nurse in USA: differences to Irish system Had to sit an exam before working as a nurse in USA. VISA dependant on passing the exam. Irish nurses were not used to multiple choice exams at the time. They were also required to sit an English language examination to work as a nurse in the USA. Rented houses were arranged for the nurses. Jane had a car and dated a man in Washington at the time. An exciting time. Maximum was 2 patients to a room in USA vs larger wards in Ireland. In USA their reports were taken on a tape recorder rather than written. Patient’s doctor would still be their doctor once they went to hospital. DRG Diagnostic Related Grouping which was related to how many days insurance would be paid per patient per illness. Good life and money in USA which allowed Jane to do the Public Health course in UCD. |
0.50.00 - 0.56.20 |
Public Health Nursing Desire to come home. Discusses her relationship with a reporter/journalist in USA which ended when she returned to Ireland. Began work in Ballyfermot - highlight in public health career. Started a needle exchange for drug addiction. Dynamic and progressive area. Rough area but felt you were making a difference. Didn’t feel the same way when she moved to Cork. Public Health vs Hospital: In hospital you pass the patient to the next shift, but in Public Health you are responsible for all of your cases. Once her camera was stolen from her car when visiting a patient. |
0.56.20 - 1.00.49 |
Coming to Cork Came to Cork because husband was working there. Had to do an Irish oral exam to get the Public Health job in Cork. November 1992 got job in Grattan Street Health Centre. Got married January 1993. Staff had a lunch and cake in before her wedding, and a present even though she was only there for a month. Admires architecture of Queens University Belfast, where she could have gone to work in the 1980s. Remarks on the small decisions than influence one’s life and career. |
1.00.49 - 1.06.59 |
Impressions of Grattan Street Health Centre Work as Public Health Nurse Parking problems in Grattan Street. Met director in base Abbey Court House. “The one thing you learn in Grattan Street is how to park!” There was more space before the school [Educate Together] Grattan Street was a welcoming place. Public Health Nurse in Blackpool flats now demolished. There was a brothel in one. Fantastic people. Once left handbag behind in Blackpool. Mixed work in Ballyfermot but all child welfare in Cork- visiting houses. Discusses one case of child with broken leg where mother hadn’t done anything about it. So a social worker and Garda were needed to get the child to hospital. Jane had to go to court. The child was returned to the mother. Jane then had to still work with that mother subsequently. |
1.06.59 - 1.09.02 |
Impression of Danger in Some Areas Worked with St Vincent de Paul in Knocknaheeny. Never felt threatened. Privileged to get into flats that people would let no one else into. If she saw suspected stolen goods she and they knew that she was not interested in anything other than child welfare. |
1.09.02 - 1.11.35 |
Story of very Difficult Patient Hospitals can discharge patients but as PHN the patient can live in your area for decades. Nurses shared a rota to look after this man because the heavy workload. Digression to story about writing wrong date in calligraphy on a colleague’s wedding album. |
1.11.35 - 1.15.30 |
What makes a Good Public Health Nurse Get on with people. Make people relaxed. People need to trust you. Have to be honest. Not trying to be someone’s friend. Assessment of patient is important. Patients can become dependent on a particular PHN. Privilege to enter other people’s homes, especially when they won’t let other people into their homes eg social workers or Gardaí |
1.15.30 - 1.19.30 |
Training and Meaning from Job Training didn’t prepare her for PHN. Compares it to jumping off a chair to train for parachute jump. End of career now. Disappointed at choices she made. She is now doing more management and less hands-on. Recalls times she felt she made a difference: making a joke with a terminal patient, assisting a family who had brought their father home to die to care for him when they were overwhelmed. Doesn’t feel like she is making a difference any more. |
1.19.30 - 1.21.20 |
Regrets the Management side of the Job As she was promoted she was had to do more management which she regrets. Is considering retiring or changing career. Would love to be a librarian or work with antiques or books. Discounts it as silly at this stage of her life. Is unhappy with her current work. Her staff say she makes a difference but she is not sure. She took a career break and her staff missed her. Feels too far away from where she started. |
1.21.20 - 1.26.40 |
Promotion to Vaccine and Management Role 1999 nursing strike. Jane was on strike committee. Picketed Abbey Court House on Sulllivan’s Quay. Meeting with management to decide whether the strikers could use the toilets and canteen. Outcome of the strike was that new job for a specialist in immunisation, vaccine. Jane was stabbed by a syringe by accident one day. Overnight Jane became Assistant Director, and colleagues at same grade insisted on calling her Senior Public Health Nurse which was the previous title. Recalls an Assistant Director who was victimised in a more severe way to Jane which went to mediation. It went away but it was nasty at the time Jane says. Jane was never invited to the Assistant Director Christmas lunch for years |
1.26.40 - 1.29.26 |
Change from Clinical to Managerial Role Her role was a clinical role with no staff, vaccines following up on defaulters. Croke Park and Haddington Road agreements changed her role. Swine Flu vaccinating 1000 people a day in Neptune Stadium. School public health nurses were backbone of system. And the management system was at cross purposes. These nurses eventually came under her remit. Realised that she didn’t like management- doesn’t like taking responsibility for the mistake of others. Describes her management style as “Do it, do it, do it!” and she shouldn’t have to give a reason. |
1.29.26 - 1.33.20 |
Building in Grattan Street compared to Gurranabraher Loves the building. Old Quaker Meeting House. Graffiti of penis and scrotum that her elderly aunt was trying to figure out. Would have preferred to stay in Grattan Street. Recalls the old ventilation holes where pigeon droppings would land on your desk. Location of Grattan Street is good for the public and services. Grattan Street building requires work to maintain it. Unsure if it’s a positive move for services to Gurranabraher. Useful to be near Edel House [women’s shelter] and the Share Houses. She has 7 staff but the new office is for 4 people which she thinks is insulting. Doesn’t believe hot desking works. They are on a “room allocation review list” |
1.33.20 - 1.35.09 |
Benefits of Grattan Street Health Centre Close to town- shops and the bank. Part of the community in Grattan Street. Close to Mercy Hospital. Building has a good feel. Felt at home there. Lots of history. The only thing people don’t miss in Grattan Street is the parking. Everyone went to the Grattan Street Christmas party. |
1.35.09 - 1.40.06 |
Relationship with community in Grattan Street Animosity is with neighbours regarding parking. Story about getting kitchen done by a man from Grattan Street and being concerned about parking. School next door- issue with parking- children don’t live in the area. Tricky relationship with the school. Story of previous principal of the school trying to get clampers to clamp all the cars belonging Grattan Street staff. Other stories about the difficulties caused by parking and the uneasy relationship with the school. |
1.40.06 - 1.40.55 |
Other Stories Mentions that there are stories about affairs in Grattan Street but doesn’t want to tell them. Says Grattan Street was a good place to work. |
1.40.55 - 1.44.55 |
Vaccine Storage Fridges Temperature Control Vaccines have to be kept in fridges between 2 degrees and 8 degrees. The Cold Chain- ensures that the vaccines are at the right temperature including when transported. Vaccines have to be monitored and recorded twice a day. Some people think Jane is over the top with her care of vaccines. She doesn’t think so. Vaccines are very expensive and important when going to school. Found it hard being responsible for the vaccines even when not at work. Story that she called about the vaccines from a Gondola in Venice is not true! Hundreds and thousands of euro worth of vaccines at a time when Order through United Drug. She sees the price every time that she orders which is stressful to see the cost. |
1.44.55 - 1.44.55 |
Difficulties Moving Vaccines to Gurranbraher Dreaded moving the vaccine in Grattan Street because there’s no lift. Complications of moving vaccine fridges and the required procedure. |
1.44.55 - 1.44.55 |
Funny story about Monitoring Electricity for Vaccine Fridges during Storm Electricity was to be cut off due to replacing telegraph poles. Needed generator to keep electricity on for the vaccine fridges. Jane had asked many times for a back-up generator but never received one. Was asked by superior to protect the vaccine fridges from a storm, which had never been asked before. Generator set up in Grattan Street yard. Jane inquired how the back-up would be physically changed if the power goes out? The solution was that the toilet light was to be left on and the electricity workers would see driving past if the power failed. |
1.49.55 - 1.51.51 |
Moving Vaccines during Floods Older man told Jane that Grattan Street is in a depression and so there are never any power cuts. One problem during big floods in Grattan Street when wall near Mercy broke. Jane was doing vaccines for Swine Flu in Neptune at the time. With steps up to Grattan Street Health Centre and vaccines on top floor Jane thought they were safe. She was informed an amphibious craft was to come to move the vaccines. A Ford Fiesta arrived. They were put in St. Finbarr’s Hospital for the night. |
1.51.51 - 1.54.25 |
Future of Vaccines Takes the vaccine care very seriously so that it’s both safe and effective. In third world vaccine storage is more complicated. Tyndall Institute is developing a patch that will deliver vaccines rather than needles. Makes comparison to Star Trek. |
1.54.25 - 2.01.07 |
Vaccine Take Up and vaccination policies Is very pro-vaccine Mentions problem with social media spreading misinformation about vaccines. And the damage that can cause. Doesn’t argue with vaccines with friends and family. Following up with child who had only received some of the required vaccine, the mother brought the child to an area with a measles epidemic. Thinks more education is needed and PHNs need to be very positive about vaccines. Thinks the HPV vaccine is a no-brainer. Need to dispel vaccine myths. Approximately 1500 euro to vaccinate a child fully. Wonders whether the fact the vaccination schemes are free of charge makes some people take it for granted and not value it. Some countries have a no vaccination no school policy. Minister for Health at the time Simon Harris had been discussing a similar policy in Ireland. In some countries there are penalties for not getting vaccinations eg withdrawal of Child Benefit. In Ireland the decision is left to the individual. Some parents think that because all other children are vaccinated that their child will be safe. Story of an unvaccinated child whose mother with only let the child play with vaccinated children! “Every vaccine is a little victory” |
2.01.07 - 2.01.54 |
Opportunity for Interviewee to say anything not yet mentioned Describes the interview as better than a counselling session. Reiterates that she has gone far away from where she started out in her career and it may be time to step back. |
2.01.54 - 2.05.57 |
Hopes for Future of Grattan Street Doesn’t believe Grattan Street can be sold. There was lots of pressure on them to move, which Jane felt was unnecessary. Jane’s preference was to move in the summer when the schools are closed because there would be no need to do vaccinations, but they were forced to move during term time. Is not sure what services are remaining in Grattan Street. Mentions a piece of furniture that she would love to have from Grattan Street. Hopes the future of Grattan Street will benefit the community. Discussion about Grattan Street being opened for heritage week or an open day but it never happened. |
2.05.57 - 2.06.10 |
Outro. Interview Ends. |