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Introduction by Kieran establishing that this interview is part of the Lowell Project on the subject of the River Lee. Tom starts with a bit of his background stating that he was born in England and he moved to Cork at the age of seven when his father got a job in the Chemistry Department of UCC (University College Cork). Tom went to primary and secondary school in Cork and then went on to Dublin to do a post grad and worked in London for about five years. He returned to Cork in 1998 and has been here ever since. Since he came back he has lived on the Northside. As a child in Cork he grew up in Rochestown in what he terms suburbia. He didn’t like suburbia and prefers the living in the City. When asked what he didn’t like about suburbia he says he was a long way away from all his friend houses for starters. He adds that his mother didn’t drive and they didn’t have a car so it was quite isolating. He says the Summer holidays seemed very long and growing up as a teenager there seemed very little to do locally. He would cycle into town to meet his friends or take the bus sometimes. He speaks of the lack of facilities and adds that there wasn’t even a shop on the Rochestown Road when he was living there. He says there was a little old lady who had a store located just on the bend near where the Rochestown Park Hotel is now. He describes this store as a little corrugated iron shack and she sold Majors cigarettes, bread and milk. He says they thought she was a little old hag but he says she was probably a lovely lady. He says this lady and her tin shack were the shopping facilities between Rochestown and Douglas at the time. He jokes that he didn’t need Majors or milk or bread. He adds that she was kind of scary. He adds when she died the shop was demolished and a housing estate was built on her land. Then the Douglas Court Shopping Centre was built in the mid 80’s. Before that there very little around he says. When asked by Kieran what he would have hoped for locally he says a playground would have been good as there wasn’t one locally. He says there was nowhere to cycle your bike apart from the housing estate which was all cul de sacs. He says as a teenager there was always a sense that there was nothing to do, he adds that a lot of that would be your own state of mind. There as no cinema or thing that would attract a teenager he says. |
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When asked could he see the rural River Lee from where he was in Rochestown Tom says they could see it. He says when they moved there in circa 1978/79 the following Summer his mother was dying to take them out for a daytrip as they didn’t have a car. From where they were living all that first Winter they were able to see the Douglas Estuary and in a certain light it looked sandy which he adds is not impossible for a river. The following Summer his mother decided they would go to the beach, she thought they could walk there. So they walked down the hill with buckets and spades etc. They went down a little farm track which was located near where the Bloomfield Interchange is now and where St Patricks Catholic Church on Rochestown Road now stands. (Note: St Patricks Church was built in 1991). Down that lane there was a farm. They hopped over a couple of hedges heading towards the river thinking that there would be a lovely beach. He says when they got there they found it was not a beach but a mud flat. Tom and his brother ran into the mud and he was they were black from the thick smelly mud. He says his mother was upset because she had planned the day out for them and it hadn’t quite worked out as she had planned. Tom says you could see the tide coming in and out. He says you could see across the river to Little Island and Tivoli Docks so he says this was one of the better things. He speaks of the disused railway line that is now a walkway and which ran out to Blackrock over the estuary. (Note: this is the Blackrock/Mahon walk which follows the old Blackrock railway line). Tom says this was all overgrown and virtually impassable in the late 70’s. He says it was only really made accessible in the early 1980’s maybe 1984/85 or 86. He remembers using it to cycle to school around that time. It was basically a barren track at first. He speaks of the old red painted steel bridge that runs over the Douglas River and that has girders on it. Tom says at that stage the bridge had no decking, just girders so you could cross the Douglas River at that stage but you would have to be very careful putting one foot in front of the other walking along the girders which he likens to a tightrope walk. He says not many people did this but a few tried it. Tom says he never did this himself. He says his father had what he says was a brilliant idea. His father looked in the river and saw what he thought were sea bass and Tom says no one in Cork ate sea bass in the late 1970’s. Tom says these were probably grey mullet. His father got it into his head that they were sea bass so he got a mackerel trace with five hooks on it on a line. He climbed out onto the red steel bridge and dropped the trace which he weighed with a lead weight off the bridge into the low tide and then tied it at the top. His idea was that he would go off and come back at his tide and then come back and pluck the fish off the trace. However he forgot about it for a week and came back and there was no sign of the trace so Tom says either the weight of the fish had pulled it into the water or someone coming along had spotted it and took the fish and line for themselves. He says his father didn’t try this again. |
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In answer to the question did his father do stuff like this all the time Tom says not usually but he would sometimes get notions. Tom says they grew up in what could be called a ghost estate these days but it wasn’t called that then. The name of the estate was Rochestown Rise and it is still there. He says they needed a shed so his father picked up small windows for the shed from the building site. He say the estate was a bit of a shambles as it was built over the period of fifteen or twenty years over various booms and busts of the Irish building industry and it was built by several different developers who would build a few houses and then go bust and then another developer would go in and build a few more and then go bust and so on. He says all the houses are different and he quips that they are “all uniformly crap”. He says that there would always be things like bits of wood, concrete blocks, bags of nails, bits of glass etc lying around when Tom was young so they would make things like treehouses, dens and carts etc. Tom’s father decided to build a shed rather than buy one so he scavenged materials from the building site and built his own shed. Tom says his parents are not from Cork. His father is from Kingston in Surrey, England and his mother is from St Albans in Hertfordshire. He says they have no Irish blood at all which he says is unusual as many British people have an Irish granny somewhere down the line. He says they came because they were unemployed, his father’s contract in Leeds University had come to an end and he saw the job in Cork advertised, he applied for the job and he got it and they moved to Cork. Previously he had worked in the University Of Sussex and he had also worked in Ahmadu Bello University which is located in Zaria in Northern Nigeria and Tom lived there with his family for three years. He says these were all short term contracts which are still the model today. Tom says his father was lecturing chemistry. When asked does he have any memories of Nigeria he says he has loads of memories. One memory is when they tried to set fire to the bush; he and his friend where they lived in an ex pat community. He says this community was outside Zaria but it was not a gated community like the ones they would have now which would have armed guard etc. He says most of the residents were American, British, Dutch, French, German’s etc. He says there were just a few African families who would be well to do. He adds that the only family who had a colour television was one of the Nigerian families. Tom says the father of this family was nicknamed the Nigerian Prince, He doesn’t know who he was but he could afford a house in this community and colour television. Tom goes on to say himself and some friends decided to steal some matches and they went into their house (the friends family’s house?) and they waited till the cook had left then they sneaked in and took and the matches from the kitchen drawer, closed it and ran out. They then went out into the fields and he adds that the estate where they lived was some distance from a railway line which unfenced so you could walk right up to the line. Tom goes into detail about how in the dry season it doesn’t rain much and its 40 degrees centigrade every day and no clouds. They were lighting matches and setting bushes on fire and were quite happy with this for a while until one bush went up in a very large fire. They reacted to this by running away and he says for all he knew they could have burned thousands of acres but he doesn’t know what happened next. They got in trouble for stealing the matches in the end. He says you remember this kind of stuff.
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Tom says he didn’t have any preconceived ideas of what Cork would be like before he came here. Living in Nigeria he didn’t know any Irish people. He says in primary school his teacher Ms Crowther got the pupils to write him going away cards before he moved and most of the children spelled Ireland as Island. His knowledge of geography when he was seven was that Britain looked like a potter with a turban on and Ireland looked like a teddy bear. He says he never thought of Ireland or had any connections there before they moved there. He says he would have to check with his parents but he doesn’t think they had any pre conceived ideas about Cork. He adds that his father had been over to Ireland on a cycling holiday in the 1960’s around West Cork, Connemara and Kerry touring around. He thinks his mother hadn’t been over here before they moved. When asked about his first impressions of Cork he says they at first lived in Bishopstown in an estate called Don’s Court which is still there. He advises to never buy a house in Dons Court as it’s built on a bog. He says that Winter of 1978 was very damp and cold. He remembers that it was another ghost estate, the roads weren’t paved and there was no street lighting. He says there were ruts in the road and when they froze over they would have ice in them and he would break the ice. He remembers finding a hypodermic syringe in the ghost estate. He says that unlike nowadays this ghost estate had a night watchman. He doesn’t was paying for him but he had a little sentry box and he was supposed to keep away the element. He adds that he obviously wasn’t doing that great a job. He describes it a really “manky” place. He says the houses were new but they were all covered in mildew and mould and cracks in the wall and it was pretty grim. His parents said the rent was very expensive, he thinks it was 250 or 500 pounds a month. He says the landlord was Pearse Wyse who was a local Fianna Fail politician. Tom says Pearse would arrive every now and again or else one of his “minions” and Tom says Pearse Wyse would be driving a gold coloured Rolls Royce. He describes it as like something out of a comedy sketch. He says they were living in what he describes as a “piece of shit” house in a ghost estate. He adds that he is sure he was a lovely man in case anyone’s listening (Note: Pearse Wyse died in 2009). Another early memory of Cork is starting school and trying to learn Irish. He decided then that he didn’t want to learn Irish as to him it was a foreign language. He went to school in St Finbars National School in Gilabbey St. When they then moved to Rochestown he went to St Lukes National School in Douglas but he never got much further in Irish. When asked how long did it take for him to turn against it he quips probably fifteen minutes? He says it wasn’t the fault of the teacher. The teacher told the class they were going to be doing gaeilge and he didn’t know what she was talking about and he didn’t know what she was talking about but he decided he would engage with it. The teacher started the class doing an exercise and came around to Tom. She asked him if he knew anything about Irish. He asked the teacher what was the Irish for yes and she said that there isn’t really an Irish word for yes. He then asked what the Irish for no is and she said that there isn’t really a word for that either. He remembers thinking how is he ever going to cope with this language. He says the shutters came down from that minute and they didn’t really go up again for about ten years. He says he is much more positive about Irish now. He says he sees the beauty in it now and tries to encourage his children to engage with it. When he was a child he was coming from Nigeria where everyone spoke at least two languages and in some cases three. He says you would have English, also Hausa which is one of the major language groups and then they might speak a tribal language. He says in Nigeria they had servants in the house. They came with the house and when they started renting it the servants turned up for work. Tom says that according to his mother he became fairly fluent in Hausa when he was living there. He still has one expression “Sannu da aikî” which means greetings at your work. He says it is a formal greeting. He was used to the idea of bilingualism and he says when he came to Ireland everyone spoke English so he was trying to learn this language that nobody spoke on a day to day basis and he thought at the age of seven that there was no point to it though he does see the point of it now. |
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When asked what caused him to change his mind he says he had the luxury of giving up Irish after the Enter Cert so he had compulsory Irish from the age of eight to the age of fourteen. When it was no longer compulsory he says he became much more open to it. He says his attitude really changed in the last five years when he started writing his book Layers (Layers: the design, history and meaning of public street signage in Cork and other Irish cities). He was writing on the subject of street signage and street names in Cork and he says a lot of that goes back to the Irish language. He says as part of this he interviewed Eamon Langford who has links with Cape Clear. Tom says he opened his eyes (to the Irish language). Tom then found a book by Séamus Ó Coigligh called Sráidainmneacha na hÉireann. This book was about street names in Irish and there was a chapter on street names in Cork which Tom got translated from Irish. Since then he’s been much more well disposed towards the Irish language. His children do Irish in school and that has changed his attitude too. He says historically speaking the introduction of mandatory learning of Irish in the state in 1926 has done very little to prevent the decline of the language whereas in Northern Ireland where it is optional the language is going quite strong. He says there are Unionist communities picking it up as well as Nationalist. He says in that case it is something you do because you love it and there is a point for the removal of the mandatory rule. He says that Douglas Hyde said in 1918 when the Gaelic League was banned by the British that it was the best thing that ever happened to it. He says ten years before that membership had collapsed. When the British banned it it became subversive and membership shot up again. He jokes that they should do the same with Irish to increase its popularity. |
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Kieran asks Tom if he ever saw anyone else fishing at the spot where his father had tried it and Tom says not on that stretch. He says it’s probably because it’s marshy and tidal. There aren’t many spots where you can to the river. He mentions Hartys Quay as a place where you can get to the river which is by the Rochestown Inn. He says Mahon Peninsula wasn’t accessible as there wasn’t a walkway or paths then. He says also its mostly grey mullet in the water around there. As grey mullet is a bottom feeder it tastes like fishy mud and it doesn’t have a sweet flavour. He says all you could do with it is stew or curry it. He says this sis a reason why many people would not go fishing for it. He says he ate it once in France, he adds the French will eat anything. He went to the aquarium in La Rochelle and the tanks had information explaining where the grey mullet is found, its eating habits and saying it was delicious etc. He says there were tasting tips on all the fish in the tanks. He adds that he’d be willing to eat it but it’s not a fine food. He adds that he sees a lot of Eastern Europeans fishing here for fish that the Irish won’t eat such as carp or roach. They especially love carp which is another bottom feeder. He says that even they don’t go after the grey mullet so he says maybe it’s just the French. When asked where does he normally see people fishing these days he says he lives in Sundays Well so he would see people fishing around the Shakey Bridge. On the North Mall you would see people fishing. Also he sees a lot of people fishing along the Weir by the Old Cork Waterworks on the Lee Road. It always amazes him how popular it is. He says it’s very much a working class thing with people in the city. He often chats to people and asks what they’ve caught etc. He says they always have strong working class accents, he says not once has he spoken to someone who sounds like they might come from Rochestown Road. He says it is young and old, you would see young lads skiving off school etc. He adds that he’s only seen a woman or girl once or twice. It’s nearly always males he says. He says it’s great that they have that connection because threes a perception that working class or city people don’t care about the environment. He adds that these people would have their fishing gear but they wouldn’t have waders or fishing clothing but hoodies etc. They would be smoking cigarettes and chatting away while fly fishing by the Shaky Bridge. He looked at them and realised that if you took away their fishing rods and left them with their hoodies and smoking their fags people might think they are dodgy characters loitering but put a rod in their hand and they look like sportsmen. They are them a man of leisure and in touch with nature. He jokes that they might not be that but that is the impression. He also says give a couple of fellows out wandering a dog and they are respectable members of the community. He says without the dog they might look like trouble. |
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He agrees that the river Lee is an important resource. It is hugely important for a lot of people. People fishing on the Lee are engaging with it directly. He says walking through Fitzgerald’s Park on the Friday before the interview he saw an otter directly below the Shaky Bridge. He says he has also seen seals and herons and water birds there as well. He says it is amazing to see such wildlife more or less in the centre of town. He says it is a great privilege and there is no entry fee, you need just go down the river and see coots and moorhens, ducks and geese and otter. He says you can see the grey mullet still but not as much. Tom asks Kieran if he remembers the killer whales which swam up the River Lee about ten to fifteen years ago. (Note: He is referring to when three killer whales entered Cork Harbour and swam upstream in the Summer of 2001). Kieran remembers them being spoken of. Tom says that the Summer before the killer whale river the river Lee was black with mullet. He says that there were so may you could have walked from one side of the river to the next on them. He says there were shoals of hundreds silvery grey fish. After the killer whales there were virtually none. He says they “hoovered them up” ie they ate a great many of the mullet. He says since then its taken years for the population to slowly grow back. Tom says he thinks it was the year 2000 that the whales came. He says they hung around City Hall for a week. He says they demolished the mullet. He says he thinks there were four or five killer whales. He says that after they left one of the older females was found dead. There was a theory that the female had become ill and the pod decided to come into the Harbour to let the female recuperate and to feed. He says there are photographs of the killer whales outside the City Hall which is something you don’t see everyday. Tom says he missed the whales as he thinks he might have been in America at the time. He was doing a lot of work in the States at the time he says. Tom speaks about the Shakey Bridge. He says the name is well known as it shakes. He says he has written elsewhere that he thought that someone had tried to stiffen it to take the shake out of it fifteen to twenty years ago but he has looked at it again and they didn’t. What they did was they installed lighting on the bridge around the time of the Millennium as part of a project to put lighting on all the bridges. He states that if you have a copy of Tom’s book Corks Twentieth Century Architecture the bit about Daly’s Bridge aka the Shakey Bridge is not true. He says it has become a tourist thing to come and make the bridge shake by jumping on it. He says that he was young the bridge would automatically shake itself when you walked across it. He sees Americans on the bridge saying they must shake the bridge and likens it to kissing the Blarney Stone. He says he doesn’t mind the bouncing up and down on it so much but he says sometimes kids swing from side to side on it. He says when they do that his feeling isn’t so pleasant and you do hear it banging away. He says there is quite a lot of corrosion on the bridge at present so he adds that this is something the Council should look into. He says the building of the bridge was paid for by a man called Daly who lived in Sundays Well (James Daly). Tom says his family were in the soft drinks business and manufactured Tanora. (Note: the company was John Daly & Co and they manufactured Tanora). Tom says it took a while to sort out the building of the bridge because there was a ferry house on the site. He says the ruins of the ferry house can still be seen just beside the north buttress of the bridge. Tom says the ferryman and his family relied upon the ferry that ran across to the Southside for their income which they had legal right to. The legal rights had to be bought before the bridge could be built. That was in 1926. Tom says the bridge was designed by City Manager Stephen Farrington. It was built in Westminster London and then brought to Cork where it was assembled like a big mechano set and he says it’s been shaking ever since. |
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Kieran asks Tom if there were many similar ferry points on the river Lee before bridges were built. Tom says there were ferry points up to quite recently. He mentions a pub on the corner of the Lower Glanmire Road called the Ferryboat Inn just before you get to Water Street there was a quay and a ferryman would row people across the river from there to the other side so they could get to Pairc Ui Caoimh on the occasions of GAA matches. Tom says the man running this was operating it right up to the 1980s and possibly the early 90’s. He says it was not an official ferry and there were question marks over how safe the small boat was but he adds no one ever came to any harm. He would have been the last of the ferrymen. Tom speaks about another ferry that went across the river where the Shandon pedestrian bridge is located now on Popes Quay, he says that this stopped in the 19’th century. He says maybe after they built the new Patricks Bridge in the 1850’s. To illustrate this point he says in 1861 there was a ferry crossing on the Northside of the river at the North Gate and there was a crossing at the site of Patricks Bridge and there was nothing in between. There was no Christy Ring Bridge, no pedestrian bridge. He says between the two it was about the third of a mile so it necessitated the ferry service especially for people going to mass in St Marys Church on Popes Quay or if someone was living in Shandon and wanted to go to town there was the little ferry that would take them there. He says he is not aware of any ferries on the south branch of the Lee but he is in doubt that there were ones operating. He doesn’t know if there was a ferry between Blackrock and Tivoli but he says there must have been one. Kieran returns the talk to the more recent ferry boat operator on the Lower Glanmire Road. Tom says he would have gone as far as the electricity power station and he would not have gone as far as Blackrock. Tom has a feeling from his memory that this boat was a fourteen or sixteen foot rowing boat punt. That is the image he has in his head of it. He wasn’t in the boat itself. He remembers hearing about it and seeing it from the Lower Glanmire Road when he thinks they were driving into town on a Sunday and the name of the pub the Ferryboat Inn made him put two and two together. |
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When asked did he ever swim in the river Tom says he didn’t swim in the City but he did swim up by the Anglers Rest pub in Carrigohane when he was young. He describes a track which is across the road from the Anglers Rest and runs along the river Lee and there’s a very sharp bend of the river about a quarter of a mile on and there is a broad pool with a pebbly beach. He says this was safe as the water was slow enough and warm enough but he says he’s not quite prepared to swim in the City Centre. He does say that the water is a lot cleaner now than it was when he was young. He says that every Summer when he was young the river would turn the colour of green snot. It would be an opaque colour and you wouldn’t be able to see the bottom of the river. Every year the City Council would say it was not the sewage but it was the fault of the IFA and the farmers (through farm effluent and silage) and the farmers in turn would say it’s nothing to do with them but the fault of the sewage. He says this argument went on for twenty years and the river stank. He talks about the song The Boys Of Fairhill and the line that goes “how does Fr Matthew Stick it?” and he says this was true to life regarding the smell. He says in the late 1990s Cork Corporation implemented the EU’s Water Directive to clean up the river and began the Cork Main Drainage scheme to pump the waste material out to Little Island. He says it’s a lot better than it used to be. In answer to the question of did the pool where they swam by the Anglers Rest have a name he says he didn’t have a name for it. He is sure there was a name for it but he can’t think of the name off the top of his head. He says he would go there with the children of a family who were friends of his parents from Ballincollig and he says they might know its local name. Talk returns to the anglers on the Lee whom Tom would speak to. When asked would they catch much Tom says they would always be very cagy about what they caught. If it was a trout or something similar they might tell you but if they caught a salmon they wouldn’t as the salmon are protected and you are supposed to have tags and you get a certain amount of tags every year which you are supposed to display. (Note: this refers to the license for Salmon fishing). He jokes that usually they say they caught noting even though there might be a bag that obviously has a fish in it. He says as well if they’re fishing they don’t want everyone to know there’s salmon there as that would be their spot. Tom says that the relationship between the City and the river is poor. He says we ignore it and till the late 90’s it was treated as an open sewer. He says it is still like a sewer in places and if you go down the river at low tide you can see raw sewage coming into the river in places though he says it is nothing like what it used to be. He says as an example on the Western Road there are a series of semi detached houses called St Finbar’s Place just before you get to the gates of UCC on the Southside of the road. (Note: St Finbar’s Place is on the opposite side of the road). He says those houses back onto the Lee and nearby what he describes as “big ugly apartments” nearby where the petrol station used to be. Tom says if you look at an old ordinance survey map of this area you can see there was an old outdoor swimming area on that part of the river. He says it was segregated and there was a men’s and a women’s area. That was south facing and a natural place for swimming he says and it is all gone now he says. He goes on to say that if you go to the other side of the river on O Donovan’s Road the houses along there have put big fences up so they don’t see the river or engage with it. In different countries people would have different attitudes to the river he says. He speaks about the town of Bamberg in Bavaria where they have rows of houses backing out onto the river and people would have a jetty or flowerbeds or a willow tree planted and people will have appropriated the river for their garden. He says it is the same along the Surrey reaches of the Thames it is considered prestigious to have a riverside home but here in Cork it is the opposite, we box it up and try to pretend it isn’t there and throw rubbish into it from behind the hedge. Tom say several of the houses which he was speaking about seem to have been bought by the same person and they have covered about a quarter of an acre in tarmac covering the gardens and built concrete walls facing the river. He says this is a dysfunctional relationship with the river. He says this is turning your back on the river. He says all these houses face the main road, he asks what is so great about the Western Road and says he would have it facing the river. He says we see the river as a threat and a source of problems, we don’t see it as a source of income or recreation. He says more power to the fellows who go fishing and those who go kayaking on the river as they are a tiny minority. |
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Continuing on this theme he says many people in Cork would be glad to see the river filled in. When asked by Kieran why this is he says he doesn’t know. He says attitudes are learnt. He says we need to educate ourselves to see it in a different way. He says it is hard to get that discussion going. He goes on to speak further about the long term relationship of the river with Cork. He compares it with that of Dublin which is often said to not have a great relationship with the river but he says in comparison most of the major buildings do face out onto the river and they seem to engage with it more. He speaks of the major buildings in Cork that do face the river such as City Hall and the Savings Bank on Lapps Quay and a few more. Quite a lot of Corks buildings turn their back on the river. He says a lot of buildings in Cork turn their back on the river and as an example he speaks of the quayside that runs from Lavitt’s Quay and takes in the Coal Quay and Bachelors Quay and Kyrl’s Quay. He speaks of “the monstrosity” Dunne’s Stores car park and he describes its designer Bertie Pope as “the world’s worst architect”. He says none of this is capitalising on the river and he says he speaks about the fact that Cork City Council built a four lane dual carriageway running from Merchants Quay to Bachelors Quay and how this has messed yup any chance to make further use of the river along there. He ponders on why this decision was made and if anyone in the Council voiced the opinion that better use could have been made of the river. Kieran asks as to whether there is a tension between transport infrastructure and the river. Tom says there is always going to be this tension as in Cork you have two main branches of the river and the island in the middle getting ion and out of the City is a problem and building more bridges is sometimes necessary. He says sometimes these can be beautiful and add to the City but they can also totally “banjax” areas of the City. He says as an example the De Valera and Collins bridges which run from Penrose Quay across to Lapps Quay and on to Albert Quay which were built in the mid to late 1980’s and carry the main Cork to Dublin Road. He says this lane of traffic has cut off and killed the Customs House and its surroundings. He talks about the fact that this building has changed hands and the plans to build a skyscraper at the end of the island it is on. A lot of people would like to see a cultural centre of some sort similar to Covent Garden in London which developed a former industrial centre. Tom says the Customs House area would be ideal and the light is fantastic and the views are great. However he says as it is cut off from the rest of the City by a national road he says it is hard to see how this could be made to work unless you build underpasses and overpasses etc. He speaks about the decision to build the two bridges thirty years ago and says in retrospect it would have been better to go down river and built a large bridge perhaps with a lifting mechanism. He says this would have been a bit more expensive in the short term. He says this could have gone across from Railway Street To Kennedy Quay and left the island as it was. He says then it would have been much easier to include the Customs House area in the City centre. He uses this analogy to illustrate how these bridges are needed but if they are ill thought out or badly located they screw up an area forever as he says no one is going to agree to demolishing these two bridges and starting again. He speaks about a proposed pedestrian bridge going across from Parnell Place to Patricks Quay but he says this has been talked about for ten years and it is something that developers dangle every now and again and is then forgotten. He say there is even talk of a second pedestrian bridge linking the bottom of Grand Parade with Sullivan’s Quay which he says is a stupid idea considering Nano Nagle Bridge is nearby. He says the proposed Parnell Place to Patricks Quay bridge would be a very good idea as it would really help McCurtain St. He says McCurtain St should be a main shopping St but is all taken up with taxi cabs and burger joints. He says this bridge would balance things around. |
0.50.25 - 1.00.40 |
Kieran asks the Tom the hypothetical question of what he would do if he had the power to pull all the levers such as what he would change about the Lee if he had the power to do so. Tom says peoples attitudes are the hardest thing to change. He says it’s not just a Cork City thing and if you go canoeing down any river in Ireland you will see farmers throwing old gates, cars etc into the river. He says outside town’s people throw plastic bags of rubbish into the river and these attitudes are hard to change. He goes on to speak more on peoples attitudes to the river and convince them they are not dangerous and smelly. He jokes if he was a benevolent dictator that would be easy. On asked what are the threats that people see from the river he says the biggest threat are the plans to build walls high walls along stretches of the river in the city. (Note: this refers to The Lower Lee (Cork City) Flood Relief Scheme). This refers to the “St Finbars Place mentality” of not wanting to see the river. Once the river disappears behind the walls our poor relationship with it will be even worse. He goes on to speak about the negative effects of the proposed plan. He describes the way its been handled a s a total mess as its being treated as a drainage plan and not treated as piece of urban design. He says it’s being designed by civil engineers who know about flooding and drainage. He says there what he calls a couple of nasty things about it that have only become apparent to him recently. One would be trying to prevent upstream flooding. He says they describe the River Lee as flashy” as in it’s prone to flash flooding from water running off farmland etc. Tom says it would be possible to speak to landowners etc and try to get them to prevent the flashing. However he says they are a powerful lobby group and the OPW do not want to take them on and have put it up to the citizens of Cork. He says it is easier to go head to head with citizens who have a poor relationship with the river and no leadership than against powerful lobbies. He describes this as a quasi Stalinist system. The second thing is the idea of walling in the river some of which will be six foot high and he says some children will not be able to see the river. He compares it to Donald Trumps wall proposal to “keep out the baddies”. He says we are being sold the wall as a simple solution. He says what the OPW is not telling people is that no city in the world has done this before and it is not tried and tested. He says it is experimental and costly and there is no guarantee that it will work. He says for this wall to work every sluice and culvert and sewer would have to be found and sealed and the chances of this happening will be slim and the wall itself may fail. If the wall collapses it would lead to lack of life he says. He speaks of the Dutch and their methods of flood control and he says that they try to minimise the height of flood walls. He speaks of the government’s unwillingness to engage with the farming lobby. The other issue he raises is that of heritage and aesthetics. He speaks about the appreciation of heritage and craft but he says this is not a measurable argument to be put in place against the wall. He says we have to find other ways of fighting it. |
1.00.43 - 1.09.24 |
Kieran asks if under an alternative plan we would have to accept limited folding in Cork. Tom says that most of the flooding in Cork is the regular flooding of the Oliver Plunkett St area and this is caused by high tides and easterly winds plus heavy rainfall. He says the proposed alternative plan by Save Cork City (the lobby group opposed to the OPW’s plan) would be for a tidal barrier in Lough Mahon. Save Cork City propose building this barrier across the mouth of Lough Mahon which Tom says would prevent high tides coming in and also provide capacity behind the barrier for flood waters coming down the barrier. He says it would be a case of closing the barrier when ever there is a flood warning and releasing the water as soon as possible afterwards. He thinks would stop nine tenths of the type of flooding we see in Cork, he said you would still get floods during once in a lifetime Hurricane Harvey type madness”. He goes on to say that a flood barrier is a tried and tested technology. When asked by Kieran where in Lough Mahon would the barrier Tom says he hadn’t been involved in the design but went to a presentation. He says the proposed tidal barrier would be located on the neck of Lough Mahon where it is narrowest from Fota Island across to Passage. He goes on to speak more about the possibility of flooding in Little Island and Hop Island and that needs to be addressed. He adds that the type of flooding that we see on Oliver Plunkett St and South Mall would be gone. Kieran asks if the barrier would disrupt shipping and Tom says the plan is to make a moving part of it that is almost always open. He speaks about the permission of Cork Port Authority to extend in Ringaskiddy so all the big deep water ships will be directed there instead of into the City apart from the Tivoli Container Port. He says this is also likely to close and everything to be moved down to Ringaskiddy. Kieran asks Tom the question of where he thinks the Lee ends. Tom says he supposes it ends at the Customs House, the character of it is very different after that where it is quite broad and tidal and sluggish but this he says is quite an arbitrary. A general discussion on this topic follows and Tom talks about the top of the tide which is the limit of where the tide will reach on the riverside. Tom speaks about the tides on the Thames and how the tide comes in as far from Teddington which is ten miles from London Bride and twenty miles from the mouth of the river. Comparisons with the Thames and the Lee are discussed. The tidal part of the Lee is quite short he says. Kieran asks Tom if he got his way what would the buildings along the Lee look like or what kind of activities would he envisage. Tom says some architects are starting to take the river into consideration. He speaks of the River Lee Hotel on the Western Road as having a balcony that is well used though it is not directly facing onto the river. He also mentions the Glucksman Gallery on the grounds of UCC as a building that takes into account its surroundings. He say regarding the City Centre there aren’t many large sites available on the river so it’s hard to answer that question. He mentions the former Dunne’s Stores site on North Main St and says it is disused for the last year or two. He talks about the Dunne’s Stores multi storey car park as being used. He says there is a delivery apron 100 feet wide outside the multi storey car park and he says he would like to se this redeveloped as a plaza/ accommodation / retail mixed use site. He says this stretch of the road isn’t the busiest so there might be a chance to do something here. He says the other site along the river with potential is the site at the top of the Coal Quay near the pedestrian bridge that’s had planning on it for the last twelve years and it’s a natural place to integrate into the river. Along with the Customs House these are the obvious spots he says are right. |
1.09.25 - 1.13.25 |
Kieran asks Tom about leisure and use of the river. Tom says you see canoe groups and Meitheal Mara (a community boat building group) using the river for a long time. He mentions the little marina that Port Of Cork built on Customs House Quay as a getting a lot of use which he says is brilliant. He speaks of the excitement when the Tall Ships come to Cork. He believes water based events like this as engaging people with the water. He says he would like to see someone do water based tours around the city, the tides mitigate against it but he says it might be possible for some enterprising person to take people on water tours. Kieran asks Tom about the group Meitheal Mara and Tom say’s he is not involved in them, but he has friends who are. Meitheal Mara are involved he says in traditional boats and boat making and they run a workshop where they rebuild Curraghs and Ballaugh traditional Irish boats. He says they would get involved in things like the Ocean To City race and you would often see them training on the river. He says they would go up the river as far as Pres (Presentation Brothers College) he says there is a weir at Pres and it is harder to get up any further. Tom says that ironically there is no history of the kind of boats Meitheal Mara use being used on the river Lee so he describes it as an invented tradition. The subject moves to the subject of raw sewage visible at low tide. Tom says it’s milky and has lumps in it, he says it is small amounts but it is constant. He says the Cork Main Drainage takes away about 99% of the poo but engineers always have to make a call and sometimes you will get a sewer shared between five houses leaking sewage. He says to make the scheme work all of these drains will have to be blocked up and re diverted. |
1.13.27 - 1.25.15 |
Kieran asks again about Hartys Quay in Rochestown and Tom says it is now a gated community. Tom thinks Harty were a local family. He says he remembers buildings on the quay like sawmills. He can’t quite recall if they were steel frame or wooden but he recalls them as big dark lumbering warehouse buildings there in the 1970s and 80’s. Kieran asks Tom does he remember any folklore or stories related to the river to which Tom says he doesn’t. Tom does add when they moved here that for ten to fifteen years heading into the early 1990’s there would always be a pair of wooden punts tied up in the river between Parnell Bridge and the Trinity Footbridge. He says they would always be tied up in the middle of the river and he never saw anyone getting into them. He says there would be another two boats upside down on the lean to on Georges Quay and Tom says he was always curious why these boats were always on the river. Tom says that someone told him that these boats were owned by a family called the O Flynn’s who had a license for salmon fishing between the City Centre and Blackrock Castle. He doesn’t know actual salmon fishing they did but they were keen to keep the license and one of the conditions was that they had to keep the boats on the river while they had their license. Tom says as time went on the boats on the river disappeared and the ones on the quayside became more and more rotten. Tom says he doesn’t know if that is all gone or if the O Flynns are all passed away. He believes this family also had a pub on Barrack St called the Clannad which he says was No 111 Barrack St. He says it was a different branch of the family that had this. Tom say those fishing rights probably go right back to the 17’th century and possibly further back and he says its interesting to see those rights still being exercised as recently as the 1980’s and 90’s. He adds that if you take a historical view of the river it’s a more pleasant condition and environment than at any time five or six hundred years. He says in terms of cleanliness and in terms of wildlife it’s in far better condition than it was in the 18’th century. He adds that in the 18’th century not only was the sewage going into it but waste from the Blackpool tanneries and food waste etc. He says there was an ongoing problem of dead babies being found drowned in the river. He says a lot of this was linked to unwanted pregnancies and prostitution. He says if you view it in these historical situations the river despite us turning our backs on it has improved. Kieran asks if there was anything that we did with the river in the past which was positive and which has now been lost and that we could revive again. To this Tom replies that we used to use the river as a source of energy and power. He says as an example the Lee Mills which is now the Lee Maltings and home to the Tyndall Institute of UCC maybe there is the potential for micro power generation. He says in the past the river infrastructure was maintained better and there are a number of weirs in the city that provided ways of pooling the water and slowing it down as well as creating fisheries. Tom says most of these weirs are in poor condition and not maintained. He says there used to be a crew with a small rowing boat employed by the City Council and they would go around and inspect quay walls and every bridge and repoint stones, remove vegetation. He says it was done from Pres, down the river up to the Beamish Brewery and this was their permanent job. He says they were abolished in living memory and a woman in her 70’s told him she remembers them as a child. He says since they were abolished there has been no probably preventative maintenance on the river. He says now the bridges on the river have been taken over by the National Road Network but there is no one looking after the quay walls etc and he says this is something that will return to “bite us in the ass”. Tom speaks about a word that came up called campshire. He describes it as a projecting part of a quayside with columns and a deck that overhangs and are a section of river infrastructure and used for loading. He says there is one on Georges Quay, one on Albert Quay and another on Albert Quay East. He goes on to say how a lot of this river infrastructure is in poor condition and. Tom say the campshire on Albert Quay East was in use till quite recently but not the others. He says they are falling down at the moment. He says they should be assessed for historical interest and kept if possible. He says if they were safe to use they could be used for a riverside amenity. He says on Albert Quay there is a modern wooden deck with a café and a few hundred feet away is the campshire which nobody uses. He adds that the boardwalk running along Lapps Quay and the one by the Electric Bar at the bottom of Grand Parade has also been a success and they have managed to avoid the problems of the Liffey Boardwalk in Dublin which include anti social behaviour, drunkenness and people taking drugs and stealing. He says he’s never seen any of that on the Cork boardwalks, there are homeless people there he says he’s never seen any hassle there. He says he can happily sit there with his kids unlike he says the Dublin Boardwalk which he says he wouldn’t dream of doing. He describes the Dublin Boardwalk as a disaster. He describes them as quite small and discrete though the bars and cafes are close to each other so they are monitored in a passive way. He also says Dublin has a much bigger anti social behaviour problem though Cork is not immune from this. |
1.25.17 - 1.29.48 |
Kieran asks Tom about his experience of the river outside the City and its source. Tom says he used to canoe a lot on the Lee about twenty odd years ago. He and a friend from work would go after work and canoe a part of the river they would pick. They would canoe from the weir above the Inniscarra bridge near Ballincollig Regional Park and canoe from Ballincollig down to the City and canoed on the lake on Inniscarra Reservoir. Once he canoed from Bandon to Kinsale on the Bandon Road. He says it gives you a totally different view and he says some stretches are quite near the road and you can see and hear the traffic and then you might turn a corner and it’ll be peaceful and you might see Kingfishers. He says if you canoe down the Lee from the Anglers Rest bar into town all you can see of the City is the County Hall skyscraper which you can see sticking out of the trees. You can’t see any other buildings he says. He says it is staggering to see it shimmering in the sunshine. He says you then start seeing the old mental hospital (Our Lady’s Hospital on the Lee Road) and the Cork City Waterworks. He says it is the nicest way to enter the city by river from the west. He says the problems regarding canoeing are that the water is quite shallow there so you spend a lot of time walking carrying the canoe especially in the Summer. He says he has capsized a lot of times as well. Once you are down the river by the Straight Road the water is deeper. He goes on to speak about the riverside bird the Kingfisher. He says they are amazing to see and they seem much bigger than they really are. He says they are about the size of a robin but because they are electric blue and because they move so fast they appear the size of a crow. He says you see a blue/orange dart when they move which he says is like a bullet of iridescent blue. He says they might be sitting for ages and you might never see them till they move. He says that would be his experience of the river outside the City, swimming by the Anglers Rest as a child and canoeing. He adds that the river outside Ballincollig is “pretty stinky”. He doesn’t know if Ballincollig has anything other than primary sewage treatment which takes the lumps out with a big net but everything else goes into the river. He says when you go through Ballincollig the water is quite cloudy and there is a smell. Kieran asks Tom if he would feel any sense of danger swimming or canoeing in the river. Tom says no, he feels quite confident in the river and they always wear life jackets. He says if you capsize often enough in a canoe you know what’s coming next, he says the golden rule is don’t let go of the paddle. |
1.29.50 - 1.38.27 |
Kieran asks Tom what are his hopes fro the river in the future. Tom says he hopes that they continue working on the water treatment plants on upstream towns. He says we are lucky in that there apart from Cork City there are really only two large conurbations on the Lee and those are Ballincollig and Macroom and if they would be up to high standards for sewage the river would be more or less pristine and the better the water quality the faster people will start using the river again. He mentions that there is now a canoe club on the Lee Road just at the back of UCC’s ERI building. He goes on to speak about the need to use the river and full, use of it while there is time. Kieran mentions that Tom wrote a book about the 1902/03 Cork Exhibition along with Dan Breen of the Cork Public Museum. Kieran asks if there was anything about how the river was used in relation to that. Tom says that when the Cork Exhibition in Fitzgerald’s Park was held in 1902 and 1903 it was a very interesting period worldwide for sport. For example he says that the GAA was twenty years old and was on an upward trajectory. Also the Great Exhibition in Cork had in terms of sport, hurling, football, lacrosse, tennis , hockey etc. He says the biggest crowd pulling events they held there was in relation to the water. Tom says that Kenneth Grahame’s the Wind In The Willows was published in 1907 and the background to that and the character of the water rat etc was a huge upsurge in interest in rowing and river based leisure activities in Edwardian times. He says it wasn’t just in Ireland but also Britain where they had the Henley Regatta, similar regattas on the Thames and the Cambridge boat race. He mentions the regatta on the Charles River in Boston and the Admirals Cup as all coming from that period. He says that the Cork Exhibition took place right on the river and you could rent a gondola a sailing boat, kayak or canoe or punt by the hour. People could paddle around Sundays Well between Pres and the Weir. This was the centre of a lot of people’s activities. He says a lot of film footage of people’s activities from this period revolves around water based activities. He says there were also two electric powered barges which were elegant timber boats with beautifully carved figureheads on the prow and these boats had DC motors and batteries. When they had important visitors they would bring them up and down the river on these barges. He says they had a rowing regatta at the Exhibition and they invited teams from across Europe and Ireland and Britain and eventually the final day came in July 1902 and it is estimated that between eighty and one hundred thousand people came to see this final. He says there were no sports ground in Ireland that would accommodate this event. This was bigger than an All Ireland Final, this was bigger than a rugby international. He says it was perhaps the biggest sporting single event seen in Ireland up to that point. There were crowds of people on the Tivoli side and on the Marina and the Tram companies got all the trams and lined them up to use as grandstands so people could pay to go up on them and see the race. He says they had a deep sea yacht race and a race with electric boats where they had electric launches racing each other up and down the Lee. He speaks of the famous water slide and mentions the photos of it. He says of this that they built a 250 foot wooden slide beside the site of the exhibition and the slide was in the river, they piled the river to put the legs of the slide into the river. He says you would climb up the top of the slide and then slid down the slide in a flat bottom punt which would hold about eight people, this would go 70 foot down the slide and would go About 50 miles an hour. He says this was faster than a steam train and the punt would skim along the water and bounce off it and land again. The boat was ran down wooden rails which were greased with fat to make it slide down faster. It was sixpence to go on it which made it the most expensive amusement. There were other amusements such as a rollercoaster but the waterslide was the big thing and if you could afford the sixpence you would spend it so it was a big money spinner for them. If you go to the park today he says some of the piles from 1902 are still visible in the river on low tide. These kind of rides were quite common he says up to the 1950s’, he says his father in law remembers going to Southend On Sea when he was living in London and they had one like it. He says it was a big excitement in 1902. Kieran asks Tom if there is any thing else he wants to cover and Tom says he has covered everything he thought he wanted to say. Kieran then thanks Tom and the interview ends. Interview ends 1.38.27 |
CFP_SR00502_kay_2014;
CFP_SR00516_browne_2014;
CFP_SR00518_dee_2014;
CFP_SR00519_casey_2014;
CFP_SR00521_mccarthy_2014;
CFP_SR00532_davis_2014;
CFP_SR00534_kiely_2014;
CFP_SR00547_curtin_2015;
CFP_SR00548_mcallister_2015;
CFP_SR00549_neville_2015;
CFP_SR00555_whelan_2015;
CFP_SR00556_lynch_2015;
CFP_SR00558_doherty_2015;
CFP_SR00561_kerrigan_2015;
CFP_SR00576_odonnabhain_2016;
DC And, so when you went to UCC, wasn’t the atmosphere so of UCC wasn’t liberal, no? --
BOD It wasn’t positive at all, and like UCC actually for me, was a very challenging place. Partly I suppose because you know, say the three years in my undergraduate from the age of seventeen to twenty, I was realising more and more, this isn’t a phase that is a going away. This is how I am, and I must be the only one as well, but I knew I wasn’t, because there was an attempt and I, --
DC What was year was this now was this in UCC?
BOD I started in 78 and I think it would have been maybe about ’79 or ’80 there was an attempt to establish a gay society and that is what it was going to be called a gay soc, gay in UCC. And the University opposed it, in fact, the University wouldn’t allow it, so I don’t know what year, I, I?
DC I think it was about then because we spoke to Cathal and he?
BOD To Cathal Kerrigan?
DC Yeah, he was the auditor wasn’t he ? --
BOD Well he, well he was the auditor, well he was also that was an interesting story in itself, because that would have been either my second or third year so either 79 or 80 and he, he was elected as a, what would you call it, chairman or president, of the UCC students Union. And you know I think he got it because his dad was a TD so he was seen as a natural leader or whatever and then after he was elected president of the students Union, he came out or he let it be known that he was gay. And this caused a lot of consternation; I don’t think there is any way he would have been voted in, if that had been known prior, because, I actually I can put a date on this, I think it was 1980, or 81 because the hunger strikes were on in Northern Ireland, so it was an awful time in Ireland generally like you know the economy was down the toilet, and then you had this nothing seem to go right for the country but anyway the hunger strikes were on and as part of that, the students union, I think Cathal may have, I don’t know done something, like closed in sympathy or made some expression of sympathy in one direction or another. And there was a general assembly of the students call somebody objected to this, now I can’t remember what led up to this, but anyway so there was general assembly, in the main restaurant in UCC and Cathal stood up, and it was like prior to that he had led some kind of a student protest about fees or something like that, and there was a sit-in, in the presidents office and you know there were kind of general meetings, and he would have seen as somebody who was doing stuff that was worth doing but then he came out and there was this general meeting called, as I say, I think it was about the hunger strikes and the student response to it and he got up on the stage and he said something like oh we have a query here from somebody and the whole place erupted into laughter, and it was like, I was looking around, I was like whatever, nineteen, twenty, I was looking around, I was like seriously? Like that is the reaction, that is you know this is so funny because a queer has the said the word query? And I do remember thinking you know looking around the room and saying these are, this is Irelands future leaders, this is not a good sign, you know and to be honest I didn’t have a high opinion of my fellow students, and you know the kind of guffaws of laughter, and oh Jesus it was pathetic, but then things got on to things to discussing whatever substantive issue was, but that for me, was a kind of a real moment of kind rejection if you like by my peers even though it had nothing to do with me.
Interviews with Margaret Newman:
CFP00407; CFP00411; CFP00412:
M N: My husband's uncle married us because he was a priest. He was in Rome all the time and eh he came home. He was belong to the Rosminian’s order, and he came home and he married us in the Lough Church. And the only thing that we never thought of was my husband, as I told ya was a painter and he was working on houses that were on eh were being built excuse me and were suppose to be getting one of the new houses. Where were we going to stay because we had no apartment to stay. We couldn’t stay with his mother his mother had a shop and then eh my mother had no room for an extra person coming in. So my mother in law had a first cousin living in Thomas Davis Avenue in Blackpool, and he had three bedrooms and then like a kitchen you know and a hall to go out to the back garden. An eh she said wouldn’t ye go down and stay there until em until the ,the your houses that are ready like there only on the plan now like when you go out. But eh ten months after I had my oldest son. I got married on the 3rd of August and he got married eh or sorry he was born on the last day of May the following year. So and so when he saved my name by fours weeks so all my children were born in my mother's house they were all born on the Southside of the city. I wouldn’t go in didn’t go into any hospital or anything. I had a doctor and I had a nurse. I had the nurses from the lying in they used to call it in western road ‘tis closed now. Twas a maternity hospital so they shifted it all them up to the CUH.
B McL: I suppose the best recollection I would have of my father is when Ita and Vincent’s kids were on the scene when they were young like and 5 and 6 and that and he was a great man for playing with the kids and sort of doing knacks with his fingers that he kind of project from the light onto the wall you know and he’d have things I don’t know how he’d used do it it would look like rabbit ears at one stage you know and would look like something else at another stage and he told the same stories to them all as they were growing up and he would do the same with my kids afterwards and the story always involved a rabbit you know and he’d call him Mr. Rabbit you see it was all about the rabbit and he’d bring in all sorts of things to it and all the kids loved would be delighted with it and it always came then to the punchline and the punchline was that the rabbit turned around and said to my father “Mr Mcloughlin, have you a match?” now as in striking a match. What the significance of it I never knew but all the kids would just wait for the punchline (fumbling with recorder and microphone) as I don’t know what it meant “Mr Loughlin, have you a match?” but they’d all be there. Hanging on, waiting for that to be said. And they’d be hilarious laughter then after that. But he just had that way with them that he was very good very good with kids you know. He was very very witty man you know but he won’t be a joke-teller you know.
TMcC: In 1972. And then I came up to UCC straight from the Leaving Cert. And that was really when I arrived in Cork in '72. So I've been in Cork for, what is that 27 years is it? Good God. Terrifying.
SH: Was '72 with the Northern situation in a way, it was almost in the sense of em, you know actual military hostilities and the number of people engaged and riots and demonstrations was almost like, the peak of the troubles, of the modern phase of the troubles in one sense like it's become a lot more sophisticated perhaps, a lot of the military activity since then but it never really has reached a no-go areas and things like that. Was there a sort of feeling that this thing was just going to go on escalating or could go on escalating and possibly engulf the whole of Ireland somehow?
TMcC: Well you know, I suppose my own situation was peculiar in that really in 1972 at the age of eighteen I was really only interested in myself and my own poetry you know. Everything else that happened was a very distant second.
SH: Was it quite a good feeling to be distant from something like that?
TMcC: Well, for me it was absolutely necessary because something terrible had happened. Em, when I was a young man, in fact, I was involved in the Fianna Fáil party which would see itself as mainly as the inheritor of old Sinn Féin, as the Republican party, very anti-Britsh, very anti-English and adamantly and furiously confident that Ulster would become part of Ireland, that the British administration of the six counties was only a temporary arrangement. Em, but you see I 1970 when I was sixteen the arms trial blew up in the face of the Fianna Fáil party and split it. So, em by 1972 when I was 18, really I was utterly and absolutely uncomfortable with the Fianna Fáil party. I suppose the kind of people I hung around with, people like John Freher and George Armstrong of Lismore and Ned Lonegan of Cappoquin and that, these kinds of people, they would have been in the PD wing of Fianna Fáil, the kind of Desmond O'Malley wing, not really the Republican wing you know? And so they were horrified by what had happened you know and believed a lot of the anti-Haughey propaganda of the time. And eh, so when I say I was only interested in my poetry and in myself it was probably a kind of survival mechanism as well, I didn't want to really have to deal with all these problems that arose for Fianna Fáil after the arms trial you know. I describe that time actually, and the year 1973 as well, in the novel I wrote 'Without Power'. It's very much sort a way of recapturing that time you know.
Describes attending school in cold substandard buildings. Preferred self-directed learning to rote memorizing. Her love of nature and science was evident early and evolved into her passion to follow medicine as a vocation and career, despite the opposition of her parents and GP who feared it would be a hard life especially for a woman.
Reflects on the deficiencies of medical training in University College Cork, especially the deliberate use of fear and humiliation in teaching which has left a negative mark on her and other colleagues. Suggests that the need to imprint so much information through humiliation is no longer necessary due to improvements in technology.
Outlines her career path through various roles, experiences and responsibilities including working in Accident and Emergency and time in New Zealand.
Discusses her impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre both as a physical building with leaks and in disrepair and as a unique workplace with a community of multiple disciplines which function well together.
Speaks about her current work as an Area Medical Officer, the kind of patients she sees and typical issues that arise including developmental checks on babies and following up with parents.
Reflects on attitudes towards medicine and the HSE especially among parents, and how as a doctor she has to deal with this in order to achieve best outcomes for child patients.
Outlines the problems with Grattan Street staff car parking and the issues it cause.
Talks about the outlines of the history she has gleaned about Grattan Street Medical Centre Building as a Quaker Meeting House and as a public dispensary.
Speaks of the marriage registry office which is part of the Grattan Street building, where weddings happen during her work day creating a strange but joyous contrast.
Discusses the amount of paperwork and documentation required for all the work in Grattan Street that remains from past decades which fascinates her.
Reflects on her hopes and the possible futures for the Grattan Street Medical Centre building, and the fate of services that will move to St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. Compares the two locations and emphasizes the importance of a good workplace culture within a building. Talks about possible patient attitudes to the new building. Hopes it will have a communal staff canteen.
Outlines the importance of administration staff in contributing to positive experiences for patients and facilitating the efficient work clinical staff.
Reflects on the difficulties of a medical career including 90 hour weeks, missing out on parties and travelling, and having to tell mothers that their babies have died.
]]>Edith grew up in Youghal where she recalls playing childhood games including Red Rover, chainey, a makeshift tennis and sandcastles on the beach.
Describes attending school in cold substandard buildings. Preferred self-directed learning to rote memorizing. Her love of nature and science was evident early and evolved into her passion to follow medicine as a vocation and career, despite the opposition of her parents and GP who feared it would be a hard life especially for a woman.
Reflects on the deficiencies of medical training in University College Cork, especially the deliberate use of fear and humiliation in teaching which has left a negative mark on her and other colleagues. Suggests that the need to imprint so much information through humiliation is no longer necessary due to improvements in technology.
Outlines her career path through various roles, experiences and responsibilities including working in Accident and Emergency and time in New Zealand.
Discusses her impressions of Grattan Street Medical Centre both as a physical building with leaks and in disrepair and as a unique workplace with a community of multiple disciplines which function well together.
Speaks about her current work as an Area Medical Officer, the kind of patients she sees and typical issues that arise including developmental checks on babies and following up with parents.
Reflects on attitudes towards medicine and the HSE especially among parents, and how as a doctor she has to deal with this in order to achieve best outcomes for child patients.
Outlines the problems with Grattan Street staff car parking and the issues it cause.
Talks about the outlines of the history she has gleaned about Grattan Street Medical Centre Building as a Quaker Meeting House and as a public dispensary.
Speaks of the marriage registry office which is part of the Grattan Street building, where weddings happen during her work day creating a strange but joyous contrast.
Discusses the amount of paperwork and documentation required for all the work in Grattan Street that remains from past decades which fascinates her.
Reflects on her hopes and the possible futures for the Grattan Street Medical Centre building, and the fate of services that will move to St. Mary’s Primary Care Centre in Gurranabraher. Compares the two locations and emphasizes the importance of a good workplace culture within a building. Talks about possible patient attitudes to the new building. Hopes it will have a communal staff canteen.
Outlines the importance of administration staff in contributing to positive experiences for patients and facilitating the efficient work clinical staff.
Reflects on the difficulties of a medical career including 90 hour weeks, missing out on parties and travelling, and having to tell mothers that their babies have died.
0.00.00 - 0.00.23 |
Intro |
0.00.23- 0.02.04 |
Games Played as Child in Youghal Grew up in Youghal. Children’s games: chasing games, Red Rover, What Time is it Mr Wolf?, Chainy. Elastics game: Long piece of elastic tied into a loop with a person at each end with complex rules about how to jump in and out and over and back. Played tennis: in the tennis club and also “over the gate”. It was the era of John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova and Bjorn Borg. Played a form of football. Made mud pies. |
0.02.04- 0.02.26 |
Describes game Chainy or Chainey in more detail Still played in her child’s school. One person catches another and they must keep holding hands and keep catching people until they are all holding hands in a long chain. |
0.02.26- 0.03.06 |
Describes Red Rover or Bulldog She didn’t like Red Rover. Stand in chain and chant “Red Rover, Red Rover, we call over X” Begins with 2 children holding hands and the person who is called over must try to run through their hands and break the link, which Edith says always hurt and as she was “quite small” she was usually the weak link. If someone didn’t break the link they had to join that chain. |
0.03.06- 0.03.47 |
Games on The beach Not much time in the water/sea because it was too cold. Made sandcastles, sand tunnels, forts, dams to keep the sea out or bring the sea in. These plans never worked and Edith says “you learned about futility as a smallie”. |
0.03.47- 0.04.38 |
Playing Without Adult Supervision Spent a lot of time quite bored in fields or on bikes. “We’d just head off on the bikes for the day: I don’t really know where we went or why we went.” Only television was RTE 1 and RTE 2- “Poverty 1 and Poverty 2” there was nothing to watch. Call to friend and come back when felt like it. No phones. Improvised ways out of problems. Reasonable amount of time without adult supervision. But there were always watchful adult eyes: “if you were doing something you shouldn’t be doing your parents would usually hear about it.” |
0.04.38- 0.05.00 |
Where not allowed to play Places not allowed to be on bikes when little: out the front on the main road where cars were quite fast. Not supposed to go on the back fields where there was a bull. (Suggestion in her response is that they may have not always obeyed!) |
0.05.00 - 0.05.16 |
Home Mum, dad and sister 3 years older. Mum was primary school principal. Dad worked Monday-Friday 9-5. |
0.05.16- 0.06.51 |
Primary School Remembers being cold and very bored. Went to school in “Park” on a crossroads on the top of a hill in the middle of nowhere. Where her mum was teacher. 2 teacher outside toilets and no central heating when she started school. There was a stove to heat the classroom very like the school in Muckross Farms. Two “boot rooms” or cloakrooms. Inside toilets eventually installed. Very few students. |
0.06.51- 0.09.50 |
Secondary School Went to Loreto in Youghal it was also very cold. Some years were in prefabs. The school was near the lighthouse. When you were bored you could look out to the sea from an old redbrick house which was left to the nuns. It was very exposed to the weather- wind, rain and salt spray from the sea-wall. Enjoyed maths and science. Lots of repetition in the schoolwork. Would prefer self-directed learning not just learning by rote. For people with other kinds of intelligence it wasted their potential and opportunity. Heuristic learning- learning through play and experience. She learned how to sew a button, balance a cheque book and pay a bill. Skills for living in the world: how to cook how to clean how to look after your physical health, mental health should be taught. |
0.09.50- 0.11.19 |
Love of Nature and Science leading to Medicine. Was always interested in nature and biological sciences: “mad about nature”. When 13 or 14 a friend brought a roadkill mink to science class to dissect it. The teacher was a bit squeamish, but Edith said she would do it “no bother”. Remembers “pure awe” at how remarkably perfect the insides were, “how it all fitted, and it all worked”. Had dissected earthworms before. Drifted then to wanting to do medicine. Set her heard on it. |
0.11.19- 0.14.09 |
Medicine as a Vocation, the Determination Required Mom and dad really didn’t want her to do medicine at all. They called in the local GP to tell her not to do it- which had the opposite effect. She applied for medicine at 16 when she sat her leaving cert for the first time and had to repeat it because she didn’t get enough points. In some ways in hindsight her parents were probably right. It is a hard life and requires working very hard for a very long time. Edith was a premature baby and was always physically small and thin and her parents were concerned. Her colleague with an Italian grandmother described the need to do medicine as being like a holy fire [Note: “sacro fuoco” maybe?] similar to a vocation but perhaps not spiritual. If you have this fire nothing else will do. She also applied for computer science. If she hadn’t done medicine in college, she thinks she would have gone back to do it later in life. Local GP told her it’s a very hard life for a woman- which is not the thing to say to a 15-year-old. Thinks the nuns that taught her was feminist in their way as they were ambitious for their students. The GP said that you don’t want to do nightshifts when pregnant or be on call when you have small babies. The cards are very much stacked against you to make it in medicine as a consultant as a woman. Edith says he was right but that you don’t want to hear that at 15. |
0.14.09- 0.15.17 |
Nuns’ Ambition for the girls Only one in school to do medicine. Many of the students did honours maths. There was competition between the boys’ school and the girls’ school. They’ve now combined. Some schools didn’t offer honours maths or honours science subjects to leaving cert for girls. |
0.15.17- 0.18.40 |
Medical Training in UCC University College Cork Didn’t love medicine in UCC. Didn’t find the training easy- a culture of throwing people in to it. Students told that most of them would become GPs and that medical students learn themselves they don’t need to be taught. Lectures often had little relevance to what was in the book. Clinical training involved bullying, teaching by fear, humiliation. Consultant was seen as god. Lots of waiting around for people who didn’t turn up. Mental fallout for some of the people in her class. And the system may not have made them better doctors. Saw how students were taught differently overseas. Students were getting sick in the morning with nerves before clinics. Had friends who weren’t doing medicine. Met her now husband at 19. Always had something outside of medicine to stay grounded. Always liked the clinical work and the patients. |
0.18.40 - 0.23.40 |
Clinical Training Book learning- through lectures. Clinical placements for students with a particular service for a time follow their team and learn how to take a patient history and examine a patient. Initially must ask about everything when taking patient histories until you know what to look for. Lived in nurses’ home in Limerick for six weeks. Consultant would take you to see an interesting patient to ask you questions. Some were fine but some were set up so that you would definitely fail so that you know that you know nothing and be humiliated. It was done to everybody no one was singled out. Describes how the consultant asked students questions. Thinks that the experience has left a mark on her and otherwise confident colleagues as they sometimes have difficulty answering questions in group settings, or when in a particular tone. Describes it as like being triggered. Edith didn’t go to one consultant’s clinics because she found she wasn’t learning from him. No one would notice if she wasn’t there. Jokes that she hopes UCC doesn’t as they’ll take away her degree! |
0.23.40- 0.25.25 |
Why this teaching system was used in UCC Consultants wanted to imprint the exceptions and rare cases on their minds so they wouldn’t forget. It was basically the Socratic method. They were once told that they weren’t good enough to be medical students. Then not good enough to be the vets in Ballsbridge and lastly that they weren’t good enough to be the medical correspondent in the Irish Times! Sounds funny now but at the time they were devastated. But Edith still remembers the name of the particular type of amputation due to this scene. This system of teaching & learning was designed when people need to remember a lot of information. Now things have changed as “all the information is there” now you need to learn how to use it. An interesting patient is one which had something which was rare. Edith describes it as something with four legs, a tail and neighs but is a zebra not a horse. |
0.26.05- 0.30.07 |
Career Path for medical students SHO- senior house officer. After qualifying you become an intern. After a first year as an intern you can become an SHO. Then become a Registrar, then a Senior Registrar, Specialist Registrar and eventually a Consultant. SHO could be 2-4 years long. SHOs are the general grunts they do all the hard work. Edith did 6 months surgery in Mercy Hospital, 6 months of medicine in the South Infirmary Hospital and really enjoyed them. Every thirds week in the Mercy they worked 110 hours. In hindsight they had “ridiculous levels of responsibility”. Then did the 2 year specialist paediatric training scheme in Dublin. Then did paediatrics in New Zealand, then accident and emergency. Did GP training in New Zealand. Returned to Ireland when her eldest daughter was 1. Worked as GP in Cork. After her twins were born Edith went back to work when they were 8 months old. She worked for Swiftcare for 5 years. Husband stayed at home to mind children and was going to go back to work. She was clinical lead with Swiftcare which included corporate, management and clinical. Looking to reduce her hours and her friend asked if she would be interested in a job in Grattan Street and she started March 2013. |
0.30.07- 0.33.44 |
Enjoyed Accident and Emergency work in New Zealand Edith says A&E in New Zealand is fabulous. It was real doctoring. The immediacy of it. See lots of different things. Got her clinical confidence- could deal with anything. Security removed anyone who was abusive. There was always enough resources, staff, beds. People weren’t burnt out in the way they are in Ireland. Requires being on call on nights. Did A&E in the Hutt outside wealthy Wellington CBD Central Business District and Porirua. Deprived areas around the Hutt so there were cases of self-harm, domestic abuse and patients from lower-socioeconomic areas. Gravitated towards those areas, similar in her time in Temple Street. In Cork Edith works mainly in the Northside. The social supports either weren’t there or didn’t work in her experience in Ireland. Children unable to access basic dental care was unheard of in New Zealand where they have better primacy care. |
0.33.44- 0.36.36 |
Early Memory & description of Grattan Street Medical Centre A woman working downstairs said it was like coming to Colditz [German WW2 Prisoner of War Camp]. Arrived with a friend. Everyone was so nice. An old Quaker Meeting House. In busy urban areas between a school, busy road, houses, church complex. Hodgepodge! Kind of Victorian road frontage. Older building at the back made of cut stone. Higgledy-piggledy. Different types of signage. There’s a bit of a railing and bit of a ramp. Building kept together with duct tape and bits of binder twine. It’s a bit sad looking. But it has been here a long time and will be here in the future. A building that’s seen use and is embedded in the community. In keeping with Middle Parish. |
0.36.36- 0.39.02 |
Services in Grattan Street Medical Centre Health centre which provides community-based services for people based in Middle Parish, inner-city area, eye clinic provides community eye services for all of the North Lee HSE area- from Blarney to Carrigtwohill. Community podiatry clinic. Community medical doctors: child development clinics and vaccination services for North Lee. Public Health Nurse (PHN) services based in Grattan Street. Home Care Services Unit. Community dental services has moved out. Girls at front desk do European Health Visit Card and stamp forms- eye clinic etc. Community Welfare Officer used to be there as well but they have moved. Vaccination services. Similar but disparate services. Serve different populations within the community. Community based services are geographically decided rather than by your condition. |
0.39.02- 0.40.40 |
Engagement with a Community Based Service Hopes that services run in the community for the community get a better engagement rather than traveling to a tertiary centre. More likely to engage with a PHN who you may have been to before than an anonymous person in an anonymous clinic that changes each time you go. Community knowledge of Grattan Street in a way that there isn’t for CUH. Grattan Street doesn’t deal with life and death so expectations are different to a hospital. Physically less distance for people to travel in the community. |
0.40.40- 0.43.44 |
Working in Grattan Street Communal Building Uses Grattan Street for office-based work. Some clinics in Grattan Street but the demographics have changed and there are fewer babies and young children in the area. Primarily paper-pushing and renewing the connections that you have with the people who work in Grattan Street. Clinics in South Doc so it’s possible for Edith not to meet any other healthcare professionals only patients so Grattan Street is a social hub and important part of the job where information is transmitted in a more informal way not through writing. Importance of feedback. And Grattan Street facilitates that. Communal building. Can see people walking past and talk to them if you leave your office door open. Facilitates those networks. You will know who is in the building and check in with Celine in the office to see who else is there and what is happening. AMO- Area Medical Officer now Community Medical Doctors. |
0.43.44- 0.51.20 |
Clinics and Patients in Grattan Street Afternoon clinic downstairs in room 4 in Grattan Street. 6-10 patients in an afternoon clinic from 2:30-4pm. Anything referred in by the PHN or the assessment of needs- the disability services, and early intervention- concern with an ongoing developmental delay in child in the community. Checks for vision, head checks, hip checks. Partly routine partly not routine. Patients tend to be very early or very late. People will turn up 30 minutes early or 15-20 minutes late. Other places people turn up on time or a few minutes late. But with small babies delays happen for parents. Staff has high tolerance for that. Sometimes a mum will come with other children as well, or with a granny or granny will come with the children or there will be a friend or helper there too. Majority of patients come from PHNs. Form from PHN saying who their GP is and why they’re being referred. Always checks their names especially as more and more patients don’t have a typical Irish name. Some of them change mobile numbers often so checking those details is important. Change of address is also a problem. Some come from Edel House a women’s homeless service. Takes a background history or birth history- where they were born, birth weight, past medical history. Discuss risk factors, examine patients and how to proceed and be very clear with follow up instructions with the parents. We only remember 30% of what we are told. Usually don’t see patients again- not a follow up, ongoing service, don’t provide therapeutic intervention. “Good at normal”- this is within the range of what we expect. Much of medicine is about the abnormal. Most usual medical issues she deals with: Vision checks for squint, hip checks- concern about deformation, head checks. Developmental assessment- concern about autism or global developmental delay or intellectual disability. Preschools are good at spotting developmental concerns and referring them. |
0.51.20- 0.54.53 |
Attitudes of Parents towards Health & Medicine and HSE Parents want the best for children and are happy to do the best what it takes. Rare case where parent is in denial about their child’s situation- Edith doesn’t hassle them so as not to sour therapeutic relations down the line. Most people engage unlike adult medicine. Some parents may have complicated or chaotic lives and social workers may need to get involved. Advocate for the child’s best interests and is represented in the family. Even parents with most complicated lives can address the child’s needs. HSE is different. Expectation of a bad service especially where Grattan Street looks a bit rough and ready, but surprised that they get a good service and Edith is pleasant and doesn’t rush them out. Difficult conversations about telling parents of long waiting lists. Edith cannot speed up assessments. |
0.54.53- 0.58.43 |
Most Unusual Cases come across Doesn’t like unusual. Should not be seeing anything acute or sinister. A child staring into space could have autism sometimes it could be an absence seizure which needs a difficult treatment. Genetic abnormality which causes a developmental delay. Acute cases usually picked up by the paediatricians. Be careful about not scaring parents. Sometimes parents are reluctant to go to hospital. Acute cases are the ones that you think about when you go home and are not at work. Acute is something which cannot wait. Less concerned about something which is stable and isn’t going to change eg if someone is fragile X a chromosomal condition which causes developmental delay, commonest cause of intellectual disability- if a patient has this it is not going to go away. But if there’s a child you think has a brain tumour which has given them an acute squint which has come on over 24 hours out of nowhere then you don’t want to wait. |
0.58.43- 1.01.44 |
Dealing with Parents Reluctant to go to Hospital Most parents want what’s best for child. Sometimes parents can sometimes be preparing to fight to get what they think their child needs, and be adversarial. Can spend much of consultation time to get the parent onside. Have to be careful to not reinforce the idea that the parent thinks they need to push harder to get what they want. Explains that she wouldn’t do for someone else’s child what she wouldn’t do for any of her own. That can be a powerful message for a parent. If that doesn’t convince them then she has to start thinking about social workers: is there child abuse, is the parent drunk or stoned. |
1.01.44- 1.02.30 |
Why People may be reluctant to go to Hospital Down to resources: can’t afford taxi, no one to mind children, don’t want to go to CUH Cork University Hospital. Often single mums, mums without social supports, or trying to work and mind children. Physical upheaval is difficult. Logistically and economically difficult for parents. Example from Gurranabraher. |
1.02.30- 1.04.58 |
What it is like to work in Grattan Street Unique. Communal building, sense of community. Even people that you don’t deal with clinically you get to know which is important. Buildings are about the people in them not just the services they provide. Physicality of the building- open gallery- you can see & hear who is there. Would prefer it if was a warner building. Survivor bonding over the deficiencies of the building. Problems with parking. People say they work in Grattan Street not in podiatry. |
1.04.58- 1.06.24 |
Parking Small area for parking, not big enough for all the people who work there. Have to move your car to let people out. Didn’t park in the car park when working a half-day because wouldn’t be able to get out. School and houses also use the parking area and they can get cross if they are blocked. |
1.06.24- 1.09.12 |
Past of the Building Quaker meeting house. Building is set up like a church- entrance with arch and sweeping staircases, ceiling roses, curved picture rails. Awareness of the thickness of the walls and windows, not the typical shape for an office building or healthcare centre. Stone plaques outside in the parking area which commemorate the building. Was a dispensary from the 1940s one of the school nurses on the list of interviewees has a friend whose father was the dispenser or pharmacist there. Some of the came to Grattan Street as children for speech and language therapy. No anecdotes about when the lights went out or when it flooded. Cultural understanding of dispensary is that it was a publicly funded pharmacy but that they were fairly grim places for the ordinary not the great and the good. Lots of rooms and big building. |
1.09.12- 1.11.37 |
Weddings in the Registry in Grattan Street Other part of the building is the registry office at the front where people get married. Weddings out the front when coming to work. Children crying and elderly people. Swathe of human life. Unusual to see weddings in the urban work environment which makes everyone smile. And she will miss that when they move. Thinks other employees will have stories and anecdotes. |
1.11.37- 1.15.00 |
Paper & Documents in Grattan Street No one would believe how much paper is in the building. No one removes paper because no one knows who it belongs to. Paper based system for records. Accretions of paper. Shared office space where very little is thrown away. Extraordinary volume of paper created and used. Referrals done on duplicate books with carbon copy. Referral books for services which no longer exist- going back as far as the 1970. Old computers unused. Random boxes of leaflets. |
1.15.00- 1.18.10 |
Words to Describe Grattan Street and its future Community. Resilience. Service. If it was a dog it would be a Labrador, and old smelly one with bad teeth that farts a lot! A pet that everyone loves. Would hate to see the building closed and empty. Sense of spirit in the building. Understands that Quakers signed over the building with the view that it would be used for health services to the community. There’s no disabled access or toilets at present. Buckets in kitchen when it rains. Won’t do well if it is left empty and cold. Community based health resource rather than offices and admin. |
1.18.10- 1.22.13 |
Future of Services moving from Grattan Street Services moving to St Mary’s health campus. Podiatry moving to St Mary’s. PHN have moved already. Vaccination will move to St Mary’s. Eye clinic will move to St Finbarr’s. Dental has gone to Finbarr’s. Unsure about European Health Cards. Home Care may stay here. Marriages will stay. They have had little information about the services. Understands the complexity of project managing the move. Eye clinic will be physically remote from St. Mary’s. Lose sense of networks even though you can still pick up the phone. Lose contacts and networks and personally knowing people in other services. Personal knowledge of how other people work. It gives you more information about how to triage or perceive a referral when you know the people. Anything that interferes with getting information relevant to the patient and decision-making will make her job slightly harder. |
1.22.13- 1.25.19 |
Sense of Patients’ Perspectives Some clinic space may have to be kept in Grattan Street because of the most vulnerable patients in the area eg. from Edel House and newly arrived immigrants, and people who have moved out of direct provision. Families where English might not be first language and from backgrounds where there might be poor healthcare. Travel may be difficult for these patients, especially going “up the hill” to St Mary’s. Will advocate strongly to keep a clinic in Grattan Street- it’s easier to move 1 doctor to see 30 patients than vice versa, and do not need any specialised equipment. Grattan Street is a disaster for people with cars- St Mary’s is much better it has parking, space and coffee shops. Ensure that better services elsewhere don’t leave more vulnerable patients behind. |
1.25.19- 1.27.47 |
Comparison between Grattan Street and St. Mary’s St Mary’s will have: heating, lifts disabled toilets, large waiting areas, easy access. [Edith’s phone vibrates during this section] In Grattan Street if you are on crutches you can’t come to work. St Mary’s will fix these problems. Change is hard. [Edith’s phone vibrates during this section] With a new start if gives the staff a chance to effect the culture of the new building. Everyone in the building making small inputs. Christmas lunch potluck and baby showers in Grattan Street for which there is no policy or permission required people organised it themselves- autonomy and power. |
1.27.47- 1.31.31 |
Culture of the New Building & Importance of Admin People need to feel they have some autonomy of their workplace eg. the signs in Grattan Street which people put up without needing permission. Every clerical and admin staff can hear the patients who come into Grattan Street so they understand that they are not a piece of paper or a number. Further away people are from the person they provide the worse the service provision. Service lives and dies on its administrative staff. When admin staff goes on holidays the clinical staff are bereft! Importance of admin staff even though their role can be minimised. But in Grattan Street there is a good balance. St Mary’s may be isolated in separate rooms. |
1.31.31- 1.33.02 |
What Makes Good Admin Support? Patience. Being able to spin so many plates. First point of contact for people who use the service. People who understand that it’s really important. Although HSE gets a bad reputation every admin staff has been helpful and gone above and beyond. Celine in Grattan Street is very patient. |
1.33.02- 1.35.14 |
Patient Expectations of St Mary’s Big scary, bewildering building. Hope that people will be made to feel welcome. Scale of foyer area is colossal and may be overwhelming. Community should have some autonomy over the building in the same way the staff should. Comfortable seats and accessible baby changing facilities may be enough to make people feel welcome. |
1.35.14-1.38.08 |
Centralised Canteen Would like to see centralised canteen for the staff with access to healthy food. Small things become important. Easy to walk around and access healthy food. Sense that the community can use the space- not much green space on the northside. Chance to look at a different model of healthcare. Moaning is easy and can create a toxic culture if things never change. Small kitchen room on St Mary’s health campus. St Finbarr’s has a centralised canteen but CUH doesn’t. Give people healthy options on site. |
1.38.08-1.40.43 |
Community connection with Grattan Street more generally Edith has little interaction with Middle Parish community. Sees people coming and going from Middle Parish Community Centre and from the SHARE Centre, may help them across the road. Very little interaction which she finds quite sad. Would know some of the support workers in Edel House through working with them and phone calls. Reality of life is everyone is very busy. No funding for other community outreach projects. May run ante-natal classes in Grattan Street which would be good. The more engaged the community can be with the building the more likely they will be to turn up to their GP appointment or diabetic nurse appointment. |
1.40.43-1.43.40 |
Reflection choosing Medicine Would not want any of her children to do medicine. Comes at a big cost. Have to work 90 hour weeks and tell mother that their babies had died while her friends were traveling and going to parties. Have to go through hard parts of job to get to a role that you like. Came first in paediatrics in UCC please don’t tell Prof Carney/Kearney that she only went to about 2 paeds lectures! But spent a lot of time in the wards. Children are direct and Edith likes that. Interview Ends |
Recounts early years in the Grattan Street Dispensary building where his father was the pharmacist.
Describes growing up on the Mardyke close to St Joseph’s School and Presentation Brothers School which he attended. Talks about the violence of corporal punishment.
His mother ran a guesthouse in the family home, including preparing all the meals for the customers who were mostly university students and commercial travellers with their own cars which was rare.
Remembers summer holidays on a cousin’s farm.
Describes his time in University College Cork as the most important in his life. Discusses student societies, debating and the university grounds.
Outlines his working life in pensions, career direction, marriage as well as living accommodation.
Expresses his hopes for building developments in Cork and the emerging opportunities of remote working there.
Reflects on how his background has formed his outlook on life.
Describes cycling to collect cream from Bradleys Dairy on Sheare’s Street in an Andrews Kruschen Salts jar. Also mentions his distaste for tripe and drisheen.
Talks about a hierarchy of respectability in Cork based on types of clothing, with shawlies being the lowest rank.
Discusses Cork dancehalls in the 1960s including UCC, the Arcadia and the people who organised them.
]]>Don recalls his entrepreneurial great-aunt who owned the Grand Hotel in Fermoy.
Recounts early years in the Grattan Street Dispensary building where his father was the pharmacist.
Describes growing up on the Mardyke close to St Joseph’s School and Presentation Brothers School which he attended. Talks about the violence of corporal punishment.
His mother ran a guesthouse in the family home, including preparing all the meals for the customers who were mostly university students and commercial travellers with their own cars which was rare.
Remembers summer holidays on a cousin’s farm.
Describes his time in University College Cork as the most important in his life. Discusses student societies, debating and the university grounds.
Outlines his working life in pensions, career direction, marriage as well as living accommodation.
Expresses his hopes for building developments in Cork and the emerging opportunities of remote working there.
Reflects on how his background has formed his outlook on life.
Describes cycling to collect cream from Bradleys Dairy on Sheare’s Street in an Andrews Kruschen Salts jar. Also mentions his distaste for tripe and drisheen.
Talks about a hierarchy of respectability in Cork based on types of clothing, with shawlies being the lowest rank.
Discusses Cork dancehalls in the 1960s including UCC, the Arcadia and the people who organised them.
0.00.00 - 0.00.19 |
intro |
0.00.19 - 0.00.00 |
Earliest Memory Playing Fermoy In Fermoy about 3 years old playing under a table in a big room. His grand-aunt Julie O’Connor known as Auntie Jess owned the Grand Hotel in Fermoy. She bought the hotel. She was an entrepreneur. She was on good terms with the clergy. She didn’t like his name Donal and called him Don which stuck. She only had one eye, she wore a false eye. |
0.02.41 - 0.03.24 |
Where he lived growing up Initially grew up in Grattan Street Moved to Mardyke when mother bought house in 1949 and he stayed there until 22 when he went to Dublin. |
0.03.24 - 0.07.13 |
Living in Grattan Street Dispensary & Children’s Games Was told that he played with a girl and a pram. Played gobs with local children. Gobs: throwing stones up and caught them on the back of your hand. Remembers playing with bricks on the stairs in Grattan Street. |
0.04.40 - 0.06.27 |
Pharmacist Father House had three bedrooms. Maybe had a kitchen and at least another room downstairs. Assumes there was an indoor bathroom was unusual. Father was a pharmacist, met Don’s mother in Fermoy where he trained and they got married in Mallow. He was from Quilty in County Clare and they moved there after living for a while in Fermoy. He opened his own business in Clare- wasn’t a good businessman- he wasn’t good at getting patients to pay for their medicines and medications. He got a job as the pharmacist in Grattan Street in Cork city. |
0.06.27 - 0.07.46 |
Description of Father & Spanish Flu Vague memory of father. Not very tall. Kind man. Good singer and piano player. Father went to Rockwell College where he caught Spanish flu which stunted his growth at around 5 foot 6. His name was John or J.J and also known as Sean. |
0.07.46 - 0.10.14 |
Family & School His father stopped working in Grattan Street and there were issues between him and Don’s mother so they split up. Moved to Mardyke when mother bought house in 1949 and he stayed there until 22 when he went to Dublin Went to St Joseph’s school on the Mardyke. He is said to have run home twice from school on first day. Only knew of one person with a car, a teacher called Bob Tanner. “bob” was slang for shilling and “tanner” was slang for sixpence so he was known as “One and Sixpence”. He had an old ‘bockety’ Ford which holes in the floor through which you could see the road. Lots of children from the Marsh area- Sheare Street, Grattan Street etc. would have gone there. Don will be collecting his grandson after the interview and there will be lots of cars and no brothers teaching in the school. |
0.10.14 - 0.12.20 |
Violence & kindness of different Presentation Brothers in School Didn’t like the brothers, “they were brutes” except for a few kindly ones. He doesn’t like authority. Went to Presentation Brothers Secondary school where the lay teachers were more humane. The brothers were physically violent. Don expresses surprise that although one hears court cases about brothers sexually assaulting pupils that he hasn’t heard ones relating to physical assault. One very nice, good man was Brother Pascal who was very musical. He ran an accordion ban, a flageolet band (woodwind instrument) and a choir. Pascal ended up teaching deaf pupils in Greenmount. He didn’t like anything about school. |
0.12.20 - 0.14.40 |
Childhood Games & Local Area Got up to mischief outside school. Lots of children in the Mardyke at the time who he played with. House he grew up in was beside Fitzgerald’s Park where he could play. They played football, cowboys and Indians, Robin Hood and climbing trees. He grew up surrounded by famous sports people including Noel Cantwell who has an avenue named after him who captained Manchester United. Tommy Kiernan and Barry McGann played rugby for Ireland. He grew up near Sundays Well Tennis Club, Cork Cricket Club, university playing fields, and the public baths. And he can’t play any of those sports. |
0.14.40 - 0.19.07 |
Description of Mother & her Guesthouse Mother came from outside Youghal from a farm. Later worked with his grand aunt in Fermoy. Small lady. Ran her house as a guesthouse. She bought the house intending to keep students. Lots of commercial travellers stayed there and tourists in the summer. His 2 sisters sent to boarding school Loreto Convent Fermoy where his mother had gone. She didn’t have a great sense of humour. Her main concern was providing for them. She lived to be 97. Commercial travellers were salesmen who called on retail shops to get goods into the shop. Recalls a commercial traveller called Mackintosh for Dell Comics, and he had stacks of comics in the van and he gave one of each to Don. There was one for keys, fire alarms. Often colourful characters who had their own cars. Guests also included chauffeurs who drove rich Americans around Ireland. The Americans may have stayed in the Metropole Hotel. The cars were big Austin Princesses like a Rolls Royce and they were parked on the Mardyke and were never damaged. He got a spin in them. |
0.19.07 - 0.24.09 |
Home Life: Guests, Food & Cooking, Description of the House, Card-playing Felt like the house wasn’t theirs because there were always strangers in the house. Always 4 or 5 students staying with them. When older he got to know the students. Grew up on his own and still describes himself as a recluse. Mother cooked breakfast and tea but not a midday meal. She was a very good cook. Did all her own baking. Basic meals: eggs for breakfast. A fry in the evening. Chips were made on a Friday which were cooked in lard and put in brown paper. Whiting fish which he hated on a Friday as meat wasn’t allowed for practicing Catholics. They ate in kitchen while the guests ate in the dining room. When the guests weren’t eating it became the sitting room. Fire lighting always in the sitting room. It was like a game of whist always moving tables. His mother was a very good card player they played at Christmastime when her friends Elsie and Liam who were teacher came to visit. They used to play the card game 110. Elsie used to pick up cards from the discard pile of cards which was a form of cheating but she was never prevented from doing it. For a small house it was very busy. Don still owns the house. |
0.24.09 - 0.25.41 |
Don’s Holidays and his Mother’s Holidays Mother took a few days off around September where she stayed with an unmarried cousin Maureen Hennessey in Sandycove Dun Laoghaire. She also visited Elsie and Liam in Malahide. Describes travelling from north Dublin to South Dublin as a great distance. He was sent to an uncle and aunt during the summer for a holiday. Had cousins around his age living on the farm his mother grew up in where he stayed on holidays. His uncle had a buckrake which had spikes and was attached to the back of the tractor. His uncle put straw on it and put the children on the straw and he drove the tractor so they were swung from side to side. Don doesn’t think this was very safe. Remembers the summers as hot and sunny. |
0.25.41 - 0.29.21 |
University and Debating Went to UCC in 1963 for a 3 year Commerce degree. Worked in Cork briefly and then in a Canadian merchant bank for 3 years in Dublin. And then he came back to Cork. UCC was the most important time in his life. Gained confidence and met lots of people. Total freedom compared to school. Met his wife there. Was not a great student he says. Was involved in debating which allowed him contact with other universities. Recalls debating against Michael D. Higgins. Thinks he began university later having started working first possibly in the ESB. |
0.29.21 - 0.35.55 |
UCC: The debating Society, Study, Lecturer’s Gowns, Rules and grounds and gardens There was a Commerce Society. The Philosophical Society of “philosoph” was the big one. It had people from every faculty where they “talked rubbish”. Once won the speaker of the year award. The debates were held on Saturday night. The auditor of the philosoph was Oliver Lyons who was a teacher in Carrigtouhil later once said “I am the philosophical Society” in response to a challenge to the rules. Don had about 50 in his class. A son of his did Commerce with 300 in his class. Doesn’t think they had to study as hard back then. First lecture the dean came in late wearing a white linen jacket and panama hat, a famous economist John Busteed. He expected them to do some work but “not as hard as the little girls in Woolworths”. When you registered in UCC you met the registrar and the president. Don was called mister for the first time. The president told him to work hard. All lecturers and professors wore gowns. Recalls the nicely cut grey suit of the president. RAG week was a very tame event compared at the time. In his 2nd year a classmate said that the new first years were too pushy and they should have been more humble. There was a rule that you couldn’t walk on the grass on the Quad and that girls were not allowed to lie on the grass anywhere. The lower grounds were wild and had subtropical plants, where the Glucksman is now and it’s more tamed. He preferred it wild. |
0.35.55 - 0.38.25 |
Work, Marriage, Honeymoon Worked in Cork for 9 months then moved to Dublin. Had a flat in Clyde Rd. graduated 1966 and married his wife Deirdre on Monday 14th August 1967, went to Achill for their honeymoon. Stayed a few nights in Butler Arms Hotel in Waterville and stopped in Limerick in the Royal or the George Hotel. They didn’t realise there were any buses in Limerick! When she arrived back in the flat in Dublin there were 4 quasi-empty milk bottles in the sink! They are still married after 53 years.
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0.38.25 - 0.41.22 |
Pensions Work in Dublin Worked with Royal Trust Company subsequently Royal Trust Bank. They were money managers. Pioneered the area of privately invested pension funds, until that time insurance companies dominated the market. Spent his life working in pensions because of that experience. They expanded to merchant banker and money market transactions. He learned a lot although only peripherally involved- much more than he learned in UCC. He didn’t like his new boss and left they job because of him- is not sure it was the best decision. Flat in Clyde Rd and also bought a house in Dublin with the aid of a company loan. Mortgage interest rates were at 8% or 9% and his was 4% or so. Paid £5,500 for the house and sold it a year later for £6,500. Ballinclea Heights in Killiney. |
0.41.22 - 0.43.15 |
Living Accommodation in Cork & Buying Houses Rented a place behind Oriel Court Hotel in Ballincollig. The big house and outhouses had been converted into flats. They rented what had been the stables. Then bought a house in the city centre of Cork on Western Road which they sold and bought another house further up Western Road which was also sold and they now live in Shanakiel where they are for 34 years. They nearly forgot the baby when they were moving house!
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0.43.15 - 0.45.51 |
Hopes for Cork development Change in development in Cork over the years. He says he doesn’t meet people in Cork city in the way he used to. Is looking forward to the new changes in the city on the quays and docks which over the next decade will be huge he thinks. He would look to see the equivalent of Dublin’s financial centre in Cork. McCarthy from Fexco said he wouldn’t move from Killorglin to Dublin because it doesn’t have scenery. Believes it’s possible for people to work from anywhere now. Would also like to see Cork have an IT hub. |
0.45.51 - 0.49.10 |
Grattan Street Dispensary for Weddings Dispensary on Grattan Street he doesn’t know what happened to it. Although he was back in the building for a wedding. Never got to go back and look inside. He was married in Honan chapel which had more appeal to him than a room in the old dispensary. Recalls a cut-stone building facing onto Grattan Street. Never remembers being inside the dispensary. Left the dispensary when he was 3 years old. In St Josephs School he met boys from Sheares Street and Paul Street but doesn’t think they had the opportunity to go to university. |
0.49.10 - 0.50.36 |
Outlook and reflection on life Raised as an only child and glad that his own children have been raised differently. Adamant after his own childhood that he would look after his own children as best he could. Believes that his own background gave him a sense of insecurity and hunger which drove him to find security. Retired early and was involved in a number of business deals of varying success.
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0.50.36 - 0.52.34 |
Grattan Street: Dairy, medicine and cream Recalls Grattan Street being busy and having tenement houses. There was a dairy on each end of Grattan St. Bradleys dairy at Sheares Street end and another one at the Kyle St end. It was all horse drawn carriages- few cars and lorries. The dairy sold butter. Was sent on his bicycle with an Andrews Kruschen Salts jar. His mother took the Kruschen salts every day as medicine. It was a small brown bottle half size of beer bottle with screw on top, with grease proof paper to prevent leakage. The jar was for cream which cost sixpence. They also sold butter pats but they didn’t buy butter there.
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0.52.34 - 00.54.44 |
Tripe and Drisheen His mother never cooked tripe and drisheen. Tried them since and didn’t like. Drisheen “the most gelatinous horrible stuff”. Thinks tripe should be nice with onions and milk.
His mother told a story that after giving birth she was confined to bed for weeks in a nursing home in Fermoy and as a special treat the nun in charge gave her tripe and his mother broke down in tears because she couldn’t eat it. Don knows men who were reared on tripe and drisheen. Likes black pudding. Has eaten haggis which he liked the taste of. He asked what Haggis was and was told that he didn’t want to know! |
0.54.44 - 0.55.06 |
Pawn Shops and Lack of Money Didn’t have any dealings with pawn shops that he knew of even though there wasn’t much money around. |
0.55.06 - 0.57.36 |
Coal Quay, Shawlies Status and Respectability Recalls the Coal Quay and the shawlies, which he suggests was not a complimentary name. Discusses how he read that there were degrees of respectability or status. At the bottom were shawlies, then women who wore coats and scarves, then women with coats and hat, and above that were women who wore costumes and hats. Says he wasn’t aware of that at the time. He subsequently saw a clip of the Coal Quay on television where a women wearing a hat and coat turned her back to avoid being recorded as being in the Coal Quay Mentions Katty Barry’s pub where crubeens were sold at closing time. Though he was “wild enough” in college he didn’t drink until he left college and began to work.
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0.57.36 -1.01.02 |
Cork Dancehalls 1960s Recalls the Main Rest in UCC which transformed into a dancehall one night a week, and everyone went to “The Rest”. Robin Power (who trained as a dentist but became an entrepreneur) started a dance in the Arcadia known as The Dinosaurs, which he thinks was on Thursday or Friday night which everyone wanted to attend if they had enough money. A typical student might have a bicycle but at the time Robin Flower had an Alfa Romeo! Brought big Irish bands there like Sandy Shaw. Arcadia was a designed ballroom with a mirrored disco ball which made it more romantic and exotic. The rest closed at 11pm and the Arcadia at 12 midnight. He met a women from Ballinlough who said she walked home from the Arcadia late at night because it was so safe back then, but she was afraid of seeing a ghost! That’s how innocent things were. The Arcadia still stands it is student accommodation now across from Kent train station. |
1.01.02 - 1.01.10 |
Outro |
He describes his routine on school days, attending St Aloysius school and awareness of tenement houses en route. All the family except his father who was traveling returned for a big meal at lunch time prepared by a local woman who worked for them. Always ate fish on Friday. Recalls respectability being very important.
He recalls the Haggart or “Haggy Field” at the bottom of Wyses Hill where “ponnies” or chamber pots were emptied.
He remembers family adversities: death of his mother, father’s heart attack and his brother’s autism.
He outlines more of his family history: paternal grandfather involved in construction of Fitzgerald’s park and the 1902 Cork Exhibition, maternal grandfather Cronin was a cattle dealer, Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road may be named after him.
He mentions pawn shops and how the family christening cups would “go missing” and be located in the local pawn. Also recalls a “shawlie” asking him to fill her a jug of porter from a bar as she did not want to be seen going inside herself.
He describes his Christian Brothers secondary school, the violence of corporal punishment, the teachers and cycling to and from school. Discusses the emphasis on rugby at the school, the elitism of this and the uniform. Reflects how in retrospect the school failed to address personal or emotional problems the pupils had. Mentions the one-day-a-week school nearby. Describes the Eglinton Baths.
Talks about studying for the Leaving Cert at Holy Trinity College with “Doc Payne” before attending UCC. Recalls studying and socialising at university before outlining his further medical training, specific cases in hospitals (North Infirmary, CUH (Cork University Hospital) and St. Finbarr’s) and ultimate career trajectory towards becoming a GP.
Reflects on improvements in medical care including vaccines, nutrition, public health and improving survival rates for many diseases. Remembers delivering his first baby and reviving a child who died from cardiac arrest.
Describes ultimately working on Grand Parade as a GP in the surgery of Dr Michael Cagney who had fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Discusses making house calls in “The Marsh” area, and the treatment of psychiatric problems.
Finally, Derek reflects on his career, the sense of guilt and hypervigilance instilled in his medical training, and how mistakes are made when not following your intuition.
]]>Originally from Winter’s Hill, Derek describes his home and family: siblings, grandmother, his GP mother and his father who worked in insurance. He outlines his mother’s tasks and equipment as a GP.
He describes his routine on school days, attending St Aloysius school and awareness of tenement houses en route. All the family except his father who was traveling returned for a big meal at lunch time prepared by a local woman who worked for them. Always ate fish on Friday. Recalls respectability being very important.
He recalls the Haggart or “Haggy Field” at the bottom of Wyses Hill where “ponnies” or chamber pots were emptied.
He remembers family adversities: death of his mother, father’s heart attack and his brother’s autism.
He outlines more of his family history: paternal grandfather involved in construction of Fitzgerald’s park and the 1902 Cork Exhibition, maternal grandfather Cronin was a cattle dealer, Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road may be named after him.
He mentions pawn shops and how the family christening cups would “go missing” and be located in the local pawn. Also recalls a “shawlie” asking him to fill her a jug of porter from a bar as she did not want to be seen going inside herself.
He describes his Christian Brothers secondary school, the violence of corporal punishment, the teachers and cycling to and from school. Discusses the emphasis on rugby at the school, the elitism of this and the uniform. Reflects how in retrospect the school failed to address personal or emotional problems the pupils had. Mentions the one-day-a-week school nearby. Describes the Eglinton Baths.
Talks about studying for the Leaving Cert at Holy Trinity College with “Doc Payne” before attending UCC. Recalls studying and socialising at university before outlining his further medical training, specific cases in hospitals (North Infirmary, CUH (Cork University Hospital) and St. Finbarr’s) and ultimate career trajectory towards becoming a GP.
Reflects on improvements in medical care including vaccines, nutrition, public health and improving survival rates for many diseases. Remembers delivering his first baby and reviving a child who died from cardiac arrest.
Describes ultimately working on Grand Parade as a GP in the surgery of Dr Michael Cagney who had fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Discusses making house calls in “The Marsh” area, and the treatment of psychiatric problems.
Finally, Derek reflects on his career, the sense of guilt and hypervigilance instilled in his medical training, and how mistakes are made when not following your intuition.
0.00.00 - 0.01.58 |
Family and House Grew up on Winter’s Hill between Blarney Street and Wyses Hill on northside of Cork. The third of 4 children all delivered by caesarean section. His mother was very small and the local GP, one of the first “lady doctors” of which there were only 4 or 5 at the time, and they covered for each other. Father worked in insurance and had a good job as assistant manager of insurance company. Mother worked full-time. Always family member in the house to help out, including a grandmother. An old male relative lived in the 3rd floor of the house. That wasn’t unusual, it wasn’t always one room per person. But it solved childminding issues. |
0.01.58 - 0.02.20 |
Grandmother Remembers grandmother’s lap, her dark blue apron with designs on it and knitting needles. She died when he was about 3. |
0.02.20 - 0.04.33 |
House and Mother’s GP Surgery 3 storey detached house, a bit unusual. Further back from the road than others, with passage in called “the passage”, hen house in front and back of house, which was normal at the time. Mother did house calls in the morning. In the evening they had to go to the dining room because the front room became the waiting room and she had her surgery upstairs. Learned young how to answer the phone. People might arrive with urine in a Paddy whiskey bottle. In retrospect she was checking pregnancies or urinary infections. He was frightened of her steriliser- an electric pot with instruments in it. Syringe needles were sharpened on an oil stone before being put in steriliser, and no one seemed to get infections. |
0.04.33 - 0.07.59 |
Routine/ Typical Day at Home & School Walked down Wyses Hill to school in St Al’s (St Aloysius) which was a girl’s school. Teachers Miss Brett, Miss Curran (Chris Curran’s sister maybe), Sister Aloysius in first class which was more challenging because she didn’t like the boys. There was two thirds girls in the class. At that time this was normal practice. Walked across Vincent’s bridge across by the Mercy Hospital and across by lark’s bridge. Recalls where the labour exchange is now (Intreo Centre Hanover Street) there were beautiful Georgian Houses (tenement houses) in terrible condition with lots of washing out and women out talking to each other and several generations playing, and that was normal. No one thought there was anything right or wrong with it, it was just the way it was. Went home for lunch, and often had soup and a main course especially in the winter time. A lighter meal in the evening. All the family returned home for lunch except his father who might be traveling to Bantry or Skibbereen which was a long way at the time. A lady prepared the meals for the family. People who worked in the house lived locally and were like members of the family. They might work for 2 or 3 years and move on, often when they got married. Someone else would come then, often by word of mouth, perhaps through his mother’s GP practice. Always ate fish on a Friday which he didn’t like. Suspects there was a rota for meals. ‘Meat and two vegetables’ was always the meal. Felt privileged to have that as not everyone could, and there was a good bit of poverty around. Recalls a “soundbite” from Blarney Street: “Johnny come in for your rasher and two eggs!” There was a great respectability, everyone respected everyone else and there wasn’t any talking down to people- it wasn’t acceptable.
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0.07.59 - 0.09.49 |
Playing near Home & the Haggard Didn’t get out of the house all that much. Played football outside the door for a while. Area called “the Haggy” across from where they lived, the Haggard* which was a kind of wasteland roughly where fancy apartments at bottom of Wyses hill are now. People used to dump their “ponnies”** in the old days. It wasn’t regarded as a place you’d go, it was just a steep hill. But people went there with their (chamber) pots. But the stigma of it not being a clean place remained even maybe 100 years after running water and sewage came in. So when playing football if the ball went down the haggy no one wanted to fetch it. Was not allowed to go out to play football, mother would have had a “conniption fit” had she known they were out doing that. [*Haggard or Haggart: A farmyard or small enclosed field; a vegetable patch or kitchen garden. Or area adjacent to the farm yard or what once was a farm yard. Traditionally this was an enclosed area on a farm for stacking hay, grain or other fodder. (sources: Wiktionary, meathfieldnames.com] **[ponny or ponnie: earthenware or metal pot or mug (Source: A Dictionary of Hiberno-English: The Irish Use of English ed. Terence Dolan)] |
0.09.49 - 0.12.43 |
Family, Changes and Adversity Mother died when he was 13. Dad had had 1st heart attack previous year and he had retired from work and started an insurance brokerage as a hobby. Sister Catherine did medicine and went to America and didn’t want to return. Different doctors tried to keep mother’s GP practice going. Older brother in insurance now retired. Younger brother Michael born hypothyroid and had severe autism slept in his room and found it normal to share a room with a practically non-verbal brother. Remarks on how people what people can accept as normal even if inconvenient and that people are strong in the face of adversity. Discusses the resentment and rage which is normalised by the internet which has also contributed to the polarisation of politics “it’s as if only extremes are correct”. History suggests consensus is what works. The manipulation of social media has contributed to this phenomenon. |
0.12.43 - 0.14.47 |
Mother, her GP work and her car Mother was very bubbly. Black hair with white stripe in the centre very careful about appearance hair was always done properly. Very hard worker with patients and at home. Expected high level of neatness and cleanness. She had a bubble car maybe 200cc with a door in the front. She covered other GPs. She went to Hettyfield and left 10 year old Derek doing his homework in the bubblecar. A 13 year old girl asked what it was and said “ours is a Consul Cortina”. The first time Derek felt his car might not be adequate. Bubble car had two seats at front one at back entered from the front. Recalls 4 children and his mother in the car! That was normal. |
0.14.47 - 0.16.53 |
Mother & Father: Backgrounds and relatives Mother and father put great store in education. She was youngest of 11 and one of the first to go to university. Dad was youngest of 17 children many in the family had been engineers. Derek’s grandfather had been married twice. Derek’s paternal grandfather died in 1917 before his father was born. Paternal grandfather was a builder/engineer/contractor had a lot to do with building of Fitzgerald’s Park, he has photographs of the grandfather with his workers dressed in Victorian outfits for the Cork Exhibition (1902 probably). Maternal grandfather was cattle-dealer Cronin. They lived up in Fair Hill which was subject to a compulsory purchase order in the 1960s by Cork corporation. Google maps lists Cronin’s Field at the top of Cathedral Road, assumes that this was the same field. Knew relatives at top of Hollyhill who were farming until Hollyhill as we know it was build. |
0.16.53 - 0.18.04 |
Pawnshops and stolen goods Two pawnshops on Lavitt’s Quay and one at bottom of Patrick’s Hill. Doesn’t recall who ran them. The Christening Cups were stolen a few times by the same person from the waiting room in the house and were located by the Gardaí in the local pawn shop. |
0.18.04 - 0.21.36 |
Secondary School: transport, teachers, shawlies, baths Went to Christian Brother’s College (CBC) after St Aloysius, his grandfather, father and brother had gone there. One teacher Mr Richard McCarthy known as Dicky Rashers called Derek by his father’s name because he had taught him as well. The story with Dicky Rashers was that he had dietary issues and after Christmas an announced that he had had rashers. He was a nice man. If it was raining they got the number 14 bus down Wyses Hill which came every 20 minutes. They used to hide because Dicky Rashers would offer them a lift which they didn’t want from a teacher. Also cycled to school. Got wheels caught in railway track going to Eglinton Baths. Those railway bridges opened until the 1970s. Goods trains and Guinness trains used to cross over them. Cycled up Patrick’s Hill to get to the Christian’s rugby field (Landsdowne). Cycled down the hill when it was raining, breaks failed and stopped where Brown Thomas is now. Only 4 or 5 cars on Blarney Street at the time. When 15 a shawlie stopped him near the Templeacre Bar (Gurranebraher Road) and she gave him a pint jug and asked him get her Guinness from the snug. She would not be seen going into the pub but wanted her Guinness. |
0.21.36 - 0.24.09 |
Secondary school teachers Christians was somewhat elitist which a lot of people were not comfortable with. Many teachers were old and not qualified teachers. Mr Murphy taught him art for leaving cert, but he had been teaching junior infants. He was very small his feet would not touch the ground when sitting on a desk. Mr Townshend music teacher and great musician. All characters. Violence of corporal punishment, queuing around the classroom to answer questions on Geography or Latin. If you weren’t very academic you got a lot of beatings on the hands. Some of those less academic pupils became very successful businessmen. The Christian brother told the boys in the B class to be nice to boys in the C class because they might need to get a job from them later. |
0.24.09 - 0.26.04 |
Secondary Schools in general, elitism & ‘One Day a Week School’ The uniform was part of the school’s elitism. There was a school nearby “the Wana” (one day a week) and there was a clear difference between them and CBC. CBC had disciplined and scheduled classes all day. The one day a week school pupils were obeying the law, 12 or 13 years old selling papers to make money. They had to attend school until a certain age. People with dyslexia were beaten and treated with contempt. Scoil Mhuire girls private school was nearby and quite posh. Around the corner was St Angela’s was less posh. Rivalry between Christians and Pres (PBC, Presentation Brothers College). |
0.26.04 - 0.27.22 |
Secondary School: lack of empathy, attitudes towards sports Was in first year of secondary school when mother died. There was no recognition of that in school and he dropped from A class to B class. A little help would have gone a long way. In retrospect there were probably a number of pupils with ongoing issues which were never addressed by the school, while the emphasis was on playing rugby. Rugby in Cork was elitist then too. Derek joined Tramore Athletic soccer club. A cousin played tennis quite well and a Christian brother said “why wouldn’t he take up a boy’s game?” |
0.27.22 - 0.28.44 |
Eglinton Baths, swimming, chipper Eglinton Baths had a boys’ pool and a girls’ pool. Probably 25 yards. White tiles with balcony around each pool. Communal hot showers, but the pool itself was freezing and stinking of chlorine. “It wasn’t unusual to be blue and wet!”. Went home via Maylor Street and went Matt Kiely’s chip shop to warm up a bit. |
0.28.44 - 0.29.30 |
Changes after mother’s death, father’s career Younger brother went into full-time care when his mother died. And his dad was involved in local politics and trying to run a business. He was a Fine Gael councillor for over 20 years in the North Central part of Cork which would have been unusual. He was involved in the health board and the building of the regional hospital. He was chairman of the hospital board for years and of the health board. |
0.29.30 - 0.31.36 |
Repeating the Leaving Cert with Dr Paye Derek always assumed that he would be a doctor. He was offered a place in dentistry in college which he declined. His dad got him into the Holy Trinity College on Washington Street “Doc Paye’s” which was a military camp for getting your leaving certificate. He is grateful to Dr Paye and Miss Paye. For this school your hair was cut very tight, you wore a humiliating uniform, “you arrived on time or you didn’t arrive at all”. Mixed class, boys wore black, girls wore red with tartan. Every class was structured 45 minutes and took serious notes. They had studied the leaving cert papers and knew what needed to be learned. Still sees Dr Paye around and she must be a good age. |
0.31.38 - 0.34.15 |
First experience of University: courses and social and sport life After he resat the leaving cert he went to UCC in a course call First Common Science. This was an experiment when Pre-Med and Pre-Dent courses were done away with. In First Common Science you competed for your course. Had little experience of social mixing, and enjoyed going to the Kampus Kitchen (Campus Kitchen) to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee, and drink beer in the evening if you could afford it. First Common Science was not a problem because of the work done in Dr Paye’s. 60 got into medicine, 20 into dentistry and the rest did other science degrees maybe dairy science and science. Glad he got to mix and get to know more people. Thinks that his son who went to Trinity to do medicine probably missed out on that aspect of social life as he went straight into medicine. Small group of people in his course. There used to be rugby matches in the quarry in UCC where the Boole Library is now. The pitch was very muddy in winter. Dentistry were not able to field a team as there were not enough men doing the course. Playing the quarry you were just as good as everyone else because everyone was terrible. |
0.34.15 - 0.37.39 |
University: playing cards, betting, debating society, studying For the first year or two Kampus Kitchen was the place to play cards and a lot of money was won and lost there. He stopped playing cards because he saw people lose their grants. He once lost the money to be spent on a shirt for the Med Ball and had to attend with a pink shirt. As regards clubs and societies looking back he thinks he should have attended the Philosoph (UCC Philosophical Society, college debating society). People who were from Cork probably got less involved in clubs and societies, whereas those living on or near campus would have become more involved. Thinks the Philosoph would have broadened his education, mentions how Theo Dorgan was there during his time in college and thinks that Theo got a broader education compared to the narrower field of medicine. His education was greatly advanced in 2nd Year Medicine while in the library fretting about a physiology exam maybe 2 weeks before the exam. A mature student around 35 years old told him “the information in a book is inversely proportional to its size”.
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0.37.39 - 0.39.37 |
What’s needed to become a doctor and to practice No one asks him as a doctor where he came in his class, and it wouldn’t make a difference anyway. Many people who were academically gifted would not have been suited to being doctors. Is concerned that a medical education which requires strong left-sided brain skills to remember and regurgitate material may not produce great communicators and not great doctors. Someone with an average IQ could be a very good doctor. The economics of being a doctor suggest that maybe it should not be so attractive for people and they would be better in IT or science. Once you qualify in medicine that is only the beginning: you have to graft for jobs, get relevant experience and only then try to make a living. It’s just a primary degree unlike dentistry where you are a qualified dentist once you complete the degree |
0.39.37 - 0.42.48 |
Working in North Infirmary: learning, some memorable cases Went to the North Infirmary. Lovely hospital to work in, was very well-treated. Very hard work. 3 medical interns, 3 surgery interns, maybe 2 SHO (Senior House Officer) and 2 Registrars. Recalls first night he was on for surgery when a patient from motorbike accident was to arrive in and the SHO left before the patient arrived. Nurses were excellent. Learned how to do things. Learned how to recognise cases that were too hot to handle. When on call started 9am Friday finished Monday at 5. There were very few GPs out of hours so got big queues in North Infirmary. Went to bed 4am one Sunday morning and he was told there was a young man with chest pain. The young man looked pale and sweaty and was wearing ex-army jacket which was “all the rage” at the time. Discovered that the man had been playing darts, had gotten a dart in the back and had a chest full of blood. Learned to be careful and not take things at face value. Another night a man was brought in by his friends. At the time Match of the Day (football highlights and analysis TV programme on BBC) was at 7pm or 8pm. The man had been in the pub and “his leg was swinging in the breeze”, he had fallen off a bar stool and broken his hip around 7:30pm but had stayed in the pub until Match of the Day was over before coming to hospital. |
0.42.48 - 0.51.04 |
Changes in healthcare: preventative medicine, vaccination, alcohol Suggests people may have been tougher in the past. Then reflects on the improvements in medicine and that “the good old days weren’t so good”, people didn’t live as long, not vaccinated, poor nutrition. As nutrition improved children became taller than their parents. Improvements in prognosis. Enthusiastic about preventative medicine. Although the medical card system did not take that into account, doctors were not paid for vaccinations on the medical card but they did it anyway. Gay Byrne encouraged people to get the measles vaccine. And there was a change in the demographics of the measles incidents over two years after that. Didn’t see cases of measles for 15-20 years, and it only reappeared when anti-vaxers (anti vaccination campaigners) appeared. Thinks it’s a scandal. Vaccination for measles is not individual it is based on herd immunity it requires 80-90% of the population to be vaccinated or the vulnerable will get it: people with immunodeficiency, leukaemia, chemotherapy. Discusses the changes in gender demographics in relation to cardio-vascular diseases and risk factors. There had been an economic difficulty with alcohol-you could only afford a small amount of alcohol (or cigarettes). But now alcohol is cheaper and cigarettes are more expensive. Mentions the trend of pre-drinking. Suggests problems of alcohol appear to occur further north of the equator. Discusses the off-licenses in Sweden where you had to order alcohol a bit like the system of ordering products in Argos. If your order for alcohol exceeded accepted level you were not served. This didn’t prevent people drinking as they made their own. Discusses the positive effect of smoking ban and the way people use the “nanny state” argument to oppose basic public health measures. Talks about the improvements in treatments and survival rates particularly for cancers and cardio vascular diseases. Compares this to reactions of indignation. Points out the hidden nature of preventative health care which can be effective but is rarely seen of credited. Preventative care is also less well understood compared with waiting times for doctors or ambulances, number of hospital beds. Thinks the question should be about quality of life and what can be done to improve it. |
0.51.04 - 0.52.47 |
North Infirmary working routine, cost of hospitals In north infirmary there was a doctors’ room and dining room where you had your own seat and there was a colour television which was unusual at the time. 6 interns. You worked every day and every third night as well and every third weekend. But if someone was on holidays you had to work every second one. The cost of a bed per night in the hospital was £80 and when it was closed the cost in other hospitals was £200-£300 per night. Discusses the merits of centres of excellence and lower-tech hospitals. |
0.52.47 - 0.57.07 |
Further training in St Finbarr’s & CUH, reviving a child, CPR After North Infirmary did obs and gynae (obstetrics and gynaecology) in St Finbarr’s Hospital and CUH (Cork University Hospital). Great training, lovely, practical and kind obstetricians. A small nurse Sister Tutor called him at night for a mother giving birth. The nurse cleverly directed him in delivering the baby with a forceps while making it seem like he was the one doing all the work. “Without the nurses we’d be nowhere”. His daughter is a nurse and sees how knowledgeable and capable they are at the coal face. Unwise for doctors to ignore what nurses say. The importance of everyone being on the same team. Recalls an A and E (accident and emergency) nurse who had all the equipment ready while the doctor was looking up what was to be done. Recalls a child around 7 years old who was dead from cardiac arrest after getting electrocuted on a Saturday afternoon. They used intubation, put up a drip, drugs, cardiac massage, and defibrillation. They didn’t have time to look up dosages they divided them amounts by 4 for a child. They had a good success rate at reviving dead bodies in North Infirmary- community response is key today. “an ambulance on its way doesn’t keep your heart beating.” Believes everyone should learn the basics of CPR. Recalls CPR in his GP practice. |
0.57.07 - 0.58.50 |
Further medical training and useful A & E experience After obs and gynae he did paediatrics, psychiatry, and a year in A and E where he learned that a little smile went a long way. Talked about how to politely and carefully deal with cases which were not serious enough to be in A and E. Public who might be waiting all day did not see the very serious cases that were happening out of sight. It was good training for a GP practice. |
0.58.50 - 1.04.21 |
Own GP practice, Dr Cagney’s GP practice & Spanish Civil War, Set up own GP practice on northside in their house. Found it lonely because there were so few patients coming in. He then practiced with Dr Michael Cagney until he got a stroke. Dr Michael Cagney was a remarkable man, big burly, chain-smoking man very kind to people. He would tell people to give up cigarettes while he was smoking at the same time. He was doing surgery and he returned to GP practice because he father had been running a practice but became ill. When Dr Michael Cagney sat his leaving cert he was too young to go to college so his dad and General Eoin O’Duffy decided to send him to fight in the Spanish Civil War. He rarely spoke about his time in that war, and must have been traumatised by it. He probably thought he was going out “to help the raped nuns.” Many people from Ireland went to fight in that war. And it was not that long ago. Reflects on children today being used as soldiers in other countries, and being involved in drug gangs in Ireland and on those who leave to fight for Al Qaeda today and crusaders in the past. Dr Michael Cagney was probably born around 1920. The practice was in 51 Grand Parade, 2 floors up. It was a very good practice, he was very ethical and kept very good notes on large A4 file in alphabetical order which was probably unusual for the time. They used the Merck Manual which was an encyclopaedia of therapeutics. You could ring surgeons for advice. There was a great sense of responsibility and great collegiality. Refers to the changing ways of doctors referring patients to hospitals. |
1.04.21 - 1.06.09 |
First day in new GP Practice, changes in care, responses to bad cases Remembers first day in Dr Michael Cagney’s practice which was in a back room and patients wanted to see Dr Cagney rather than Derek: “With respect to you doctor I’d like to see the doctor!” After time people came to see him specifically. Did everything, including: antenatal, postnatal and smears- it was perfectly normal for a male doctor to do a smear in those days before there were headline cases of doctors who did the wrong thing. Derek became deskilled in that area because it was too much of a risk. Suggests that new practices are often introduced in response to hard cases. Mentions the response to the Dr Harold Shipman murders in England where GPs had to list the number of patients they had who died in one year to prevent a similar case. One GP made a mistake in their statistics and rang up to clarify them, but was told no one would ever read the statistics so it didn’t matter. Says that lots of information is gathered but never really used. |
1.06.09 - 1.08.05 |
Learning on the job, diseases not disappearing Dr Michael Cagney learned surgery but had to learn paediatrics on the job. Thinks most people of average intelligence can learn very quickly when put in a situation. Recalls a patient with a rheumatic heart and the hospital intern found it hard to believe. Derek says “diseases don’t go away they’re just waiting for you to forget that they happen”. Thinks there will be more outbreaks of diseases due to lack of vaccination. Polio outbreak in Amsterdam 20 years ago. “diseases don’t go away because you are sophisticated or rich or white.” |
1.08.05- 1.09.51 |
Attitudes to vaccination, TB Treatments in Cork Discusses the positive attitude towards vaccination in the past. People had seen children with whooping cough and adults who had holes in their lungs because of it. Doctors had patients who had limps from polio epidemic in Cork in 1950s, knows of a patient who died of post-polio syndrome in their 70s. TB was common but few admitted to having it- stigma associated with it comparable to leprosy or HIV. Mentions Mr Hickey in Sarsfield’s Court who was able to collapse lungs and do pioneering surgery to treat TB. Thinks vaccination is question of statistics not opinion. |
1.09.51 - 1.12.20 |
Routine as GP: house calls, pager, patients not going to hospital Typical day started around 9am. Might do 10 house calls in a day because people didn’t go to hospital or if they did not for very long. House calls were also more common back then because of the lack of transport options for patients. Discusses the pager service, finding a public pay phone and how getting in contact with a patient an hour after they used the pager was considered fast. Dealt with a lot of pathology at home if patients did not wish to go to hospital. Could visit a patient at home every day for a week or two if they had a serious condition. It was very gratifying when patients recovered. |
1.12.20 - 1.15.06 |
Public Health Nurse care Had little contact with the Grattan Street dispensary and health centre. Mentions the dental service there, ophthalmologist Dr O’Sullivan and public health nurses (PHNs). When doing the membership of general practice in London he was not believed when he said there were only 2 PHNs for Cork city centre. PHNs medical care had a physical, psychological and social side. Knows that dispensary doctors had limited treatments: “blue tablets, red tablets and liquids”. They worked before the medical card system, which he thinks came in the 1970s. When Derek became a doctor the system was ‘fee per item’ you were paid a small amount for each thing you did as a GP. Everything had to be written in a duplicate book. |
1.15.06 - 1.17.52 |
‘The Marsh’ memories. Case of anaemic man Dad was in the St Vincent De Paul and many in the Marsh were living with 2 or 3 families (in some case 5 families) living in the same big Georgian Houses. Many of these were knocked down in the 50s and 60s and many moved to Cathedral Road and Fair Hill. Some families had lived for generations in the Marsh. Recalls visiting a man a PHN was concerned about. Man lived with his dog and had a picture of Elvis on one wall and Jesus on the other. He was very anaemic but wouldn’t go to hospital. The remedy was some injections of B12, iron and oral folic acid and Meals on Wheels. Believes the problem was nutritional- living on spam sandwiches. |
1.17.52 - 1.20.35 |
People with psychiatric problems lived in the community in the past, now are being hospitalised Some people who lived in the city centre had come from elsewhere where may have been rejected. Some had mild schizophrenia or personality problems. They came to live in the anonymity of town. Many muddled along living in bedsits and had as much company as they wished. Now similar cases are put in hospital maybe in situations that do not suit them. Discusses the idea of putting anyone with psychiatric problems into the same category. Compares how we treat other illnesses- there is no “abdominal ward” which would treat a huge array of different illnesses, these are catered for separately. Similarly he thinks it doesn’t make sense to put people who are depressed or hearing voices in the same place as those with an eating disorder. Does not think the problem will be solved by additional money alone. |
1.20.35 - 1.21.40 |
Ability of people to cope. Publican ran bar walking on her knees Highlights the extraordinary ability of people to cope. Recalls an elderly lady (who probably had polio) and ran a bar walking on her knees on a bench behind the counter. Thinks that today there is more a demand for everything to be perfect and this can lead to unhappiness. |
1.21.40 - 1.24.15 |
Reflects on career, mistakes and medical training Thinks that when he made mistakes it was because he had ignored the inner voice that suggested something didn’t smell right. One of the things that was instilled in learning to be a doctor was basic guilt. The default was guilt, the sense that if something went wrong it must be your fault. That is the downside of medicine: trained into a guilt-trip. Makes you vigilant all the time which can be tiring. Wouldn’t change anything, felt privileged and happy to meet people and make a connection and friends. It wasn’t possible to be friends with your patients, there had to be a dividing line, though he is friends with them now. You couldn’t do business with or have a relationship or a social life with a patient. Peggy Cronin O’Connell and Vincent O’Connell were his parents’ names. Interview Ends 1.24.15 |
0.00.00 - 0.01.35 |
Paul gives his background. Lived in Military Hill Cork City, His father worked for Great Western Railway. Paul attend Christians and Went to University College Cork where he studied medicine |
0.01.36 - 0.04.29 |
In 1952 Pauls final year of secondary school a mobile x-ray unit came. Paul was nominated to be x-rayed first. which showed a shadow on his lungs. Which they told him was TB After spending a short time confined to his bed at home on a course of streptomycin injections and salicylic acid tablets Paul was sent to Heatherside sanitorium in Doneraile Co. Cork. This meant he missed participating in the Muster Schools cup in rugby.
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0.04.30 - 0.06.32 |
Paul speaks of Dr Noel Browne’s campaign against TB. Paul also mentions that he never spat up the infection and questions whether he had TB at all. He then goes on to mention his ward mate in the hospital. He a teenage mixed in with adult men |
0.06.32 - 0.07.12 |
Speaks briefly about his mother visiting and bringing him eggs to cure him, and the odd visit from teammates when they were on their way back from games in Limerick. Paul mentions here that he was in Heatherside for four months |
0.07.14 - 0.11.00 |
Paul tells a story about the night before a patient got discharged, they had a party in the ‘Panzer ward’. Songs sung, cigarettes and drink. They were interrupted by the DR Con O’Leary. Paul jumped into a bed with another patient and was subsequently caught by DR. The nest day he was summoned to the DR and told that ‘a nice boy from a good family shouldn’t be acting as such’. He was then moved to Lota on the outskirts of Cork City.
Paul mentions that years later in Canada he met the son of the DR and relayed the story to him. |
0.11.01 - 0.15.16 |
Paul mentions his undertaking of pre med at UCC and that in his second year he and other student were given the opportunity to help out with the polio epidemic that had taken hold in Cork 1956 for four weeks. Eight students were assigned to ST Finbarr’s hospital to relive the nurses at night-time. Paul describes the fever ward and the hissing of machines and the dark dim light. He then relays a story of how he had to manually ventilate a four-year-old girl called Margot. Who was too small for the iron lungs. Paul further this by explain how Margot lived till she was seventeen and that she had a great relationship with the nurses. Paul has written about this in various publications. Holy Bough, UCC alumni magazine. Margot’s family say the article and contacted Paul. Pairs of students would be assigned a patient and alternate manually bagging and sucking out secretions. |
0.15.17 - 0.19.15 |
Paul speaks of how working in the epidemic made them fell. He mentions that his girlfriend at the time (now his wife) was asked to leave her digs. And how another volunteer came home one night to find all his belongings on the doorstep.
Paul goes on to talk about how good the nurses were especially Nancy Reardon and Kathleen Stoker He refers to polio outbreak in Chicago a year earlier and how the vaccine was rolled out there. And how the same didn’t happen in Cork. Though he did hear that some were offered the vaccine but not those helping in the hospital, only those who went iin ambulance to retrieve patients. None of his colleagues contracted the disease, one did get meningitis but not extreme case. Mention of Patrick Cockburn’s book ‘Broken Boy’ |
0.19.15 - 0.21.42 |
Pauls talks of the public health response. How Cork took British Laisses faire attitude. How the country was in a panic but the measure did not stack up. He mentions the closer of some aspects of society like sports and swimming pools. |
0.21.42 - 0.24.47 |
Paul speaks of a woman called Lou Fitzgerald and how she helped his mother when he was sick. Lou (real name Julia) had been in Cummann na mBan during War of Independence. Talk veers towards independence period |
0.24.47 - 0.27.15 |
Paul speaks of the fear he had when diagnosed with TB. Fear of chest surgery. We speak about Heatherside and Sean O’Riordan |
0.27.15 - 0.28.07 |
Paul brings up how in the sanitorium the topic of a ‘cure’ was always a subject of conversation. Tells story of trying to recreate swizz conditions as a means of getting better. Tis entailed his pushing his bed to the veranda and letting the snow fall on him as he slept. |
0.28.07- 0.3112 |
We talk about the crafts that patients did in Heatherside. Wallet making etc. Paul mentions that there was a one man that controlled that. He also mentions that crafts were one way of getting ladies attention.
Paul mentions how once he was put on Iduronic acid hydroxide he rapidly improved. He even remembers a Life magazine with drug on front cover being brought into ward.
How this drug was the reason the sanitoria closed. |
0.31.12 - 0.33.30 |
Some talk about COVID and TB and Polio similarities. Lockdowns ETC. |
0.33.30 - 0.40.10 |
End Chat where we talked about our families. Paul mentions his brother Brendan being in the showband the Dixies. INTERVIEW ENDS |