0.00.31 - 0.07.12 |
Early life. Born on Bandon Road. Roche’s Cross. Moving to Ballypheane. Death of mother. Move to Ballypheane. Aunts and fathers house. Greenmount School. Glasheen Secondary School. How he has bad memories of school in Glasheen, how you’d be terrified of school then. Playing with the Barrs. Walking up the Lee Fields. Bowling, playing football and how they would be out all the time. The Three Fields. The Well Field. Playing hurling when they got to age twelve or thirteen. Going out the road bowling. Going for a spin in the car with his uncle on a Sunday to Kinsale and Garrettstown. Going bowling up Pouldaduff Road by Celia’s Pub. The river by Celia’s Pub. How there was just one child ever collected in primary school. How there was just one car on their road. Mick Barry the bowler. Other greats of bowling Dennis Scully and Mick Sexton. How he disliked primary school but like secondary school. Going on to CIT and doing a marine related course. Studying morse code. Going on to work in Fords. Working there from 1979 to 1984. How they knew Fords would be closing in 84 in connection with the Common Market. How it was worse for married men being laid off. How Fords were great employers and would pay for employee’s children to go through college. Fords West Cork connections. How it was a big blow when it closed. The Lough. Tom starts off by saying he was born on Bandon Road, and then moved to Roche’s Cross. His mother died in 1964 and they moved to Ballypheane then. He says he was born in 1958. They moved here in he was about six. The house where the interview is taking place and where he lived was his aunt’s house. His father’s house was number 223. He went to Greenmount School and then Glasheen Secondary School. He says his memories of Greenmount School are bad memories. He says you’d be terrified of school then and that you’re a product of your times. He says he played hurling with the Barrs up to the age of nineteen. Himself and his friends would go up the Lee Fields walking. They would go out the road bowling and out walking and across the road playing football. He adds that this is basically all they did, there were no computers then so you would be out all the time. He says they would be out the Three Fields and the Well Field. They would be just running around the Three Fields when asked what games would they play. He says when they got to twelve or thirteen they would start playing hurling and football for the Barrs. They would go for a spin every Sunday with his uncle, there was a fellow they knew had a car. They would go for a spin to Kinsale and Garrettstown. They would go bowling up Pouladuff Road by Celia’s Pub. He says they would have played in the river by Celia’s pub as well in answer to a question from Jamie. He says that when he was in primary school there was only one child in the school ever collected by car. He says there was only one car on their road from the traffic lights closest to where the interview is taking place and the lights down by the Lough. He says he remembers Mick Barry the bowler playing. He says he died in the same home in Ballincollig where Bobby did. (Bobby Moore, his cousin Eleanor’s father). He says he was a great bowler, adding that he and his siblings when Mick Barry was bowling. He lists him off with the other great bowlers Dennis Scully and Mick Sexton. He says you were out all the time as you had no computer or no car. He returns to the subject of school saying he disliked primary school but like secondary school. He says you were a grownup when you go to secondary school by means of explaining this. He says he loved French and Latin. He went on to do a marine course in CIT. He says he studied morse code which you had to do if you were going to be working on ships. He says you would be fixing equipment too but he didn’t finish that part of the course. He says he then went on to work in Fords. He started in 1979 and finished in 1984. He adds he then went on to Western Digital and then Apple. Returning to the subject of Fords he says they always knew it would close in 84 and this had something to do with the Common Market. He mentions that Dunlops closed in 83 and they were the year after. He says he was so young he probably didn’t care but for married men it was worse. He adds that Fords would give them a great severance pay and would pay to put their children through college. He says they were great employers. He adds that Ford himself was West Cork, Ballinascarty. He says there 800 there at that time and they thought that was a huge amount though nowadays there would be thousands in Apple. When it closed it was a big blow he says especially for families. He says things were very bad that time for jobs. He says there was no one on the Road working. He goes into a general discussion about how Ballypheane picked up and the economy in general. He says the houses locally are there years. The Lough is there hundreds of years. |
0.07.14 - 0.09.26 |
Ballypheane developments when he was young. How the houses down Pouladuff Road hadn’t yet been built when he was young. The dump on the site of Pearse Square. “The Dumpa”. How much of Ballypheane goes back seventy five years. How the houses on the road where he lives were among the last to be built. How Pearse Road stretches to Musgrave Park and beyond. Kent Road, Connolly Road. How the corporation built the houses by direct labour. His father in the mill, his uncle in Fords. The Falvey builders were are no relation. Michael Moores work for the Project on masons. Jim Fahey’s work on masons. Stone Mason Dinny Murphy who would go to work in a shirt and tie. How the old tradesmen were very proud of their work. The masons language barlog. The local church. Ballypheane Credit Union. When asked was there still development going on in Ballypheane when he was young Tom says the houses down Pouladuff Road weren’t there then. He says there was a dump where Pearse Square is now. He says they would call it the Dumpa. He says that would be going back about fifty years. Outside of that the main part of Ballypheane is seventy five years old. He says the houses where he is living were among the last to be built. He says the houses started way down beyond the church (Ballypheane Church). He says Pearse Road goes down to Musgrave Park and beyond it. James adds that Kent Road was the first to be built then parts of Connolly Road and Pearse Road were added. He says it was built by direct labour as it was called where the corporation would have their own plasterers etc. He says they don’t build anything now. He says he doesn’t think any of his relatives were involved in the building of Ballypheane. His father used to work down the mill and his uncle was in Fords and another uncle in Texaco. He says there were Falvey builders but they weren’t related. This leads into a discussion about Michael Moores work for the Cork Folklore Project interviewing masons. Jim Faheys work in this area is also discussed. Tom talks about a stone mason he knew who is now dead called Dinny Murphy. Tom says he would go to work in a shirt and tie. He adds that Dinny Murphy had fierce pride and that was the way with the old tradesmen. The mason’s language barlog is mentioned. James mentions that the local church was built by local tradesmen. Tom says the credit union ion Ballypheane was built around 1959. Tom doesn’t remember the credit union being in the church. |
0.09.28 - 0.13.42 |
How they would never venture further up Ballypheane beyond the traffic lights. How his grand uncle Tom Harris was at the first Barrs meeting. Book on the Barrs. His Harris grandmother. The old Harris House on the corner of the Lough. The Harris market gardens. Tom Harris’s horse. The old Garda Station by the Ardmanning. The big old house that was still there when Tom was in his twenties and is long gone. Tom says the Harris Market garden was still there when he was young. How there were other market gardens still in Friars Walk owned by the Scanlon’s, a relative of theirs Mick Carroll still lives on the corner up a bit from Tom. How they had a lot of property that was bought by compulsory order. Tom’s grandaunt Madgie Harris who lived on Pouladuff Road. How when you’re young you don’t take much notice of things. How he hated primary school. How you would be afraid of the priests. Walking to school in Greenmount. Jumping on the bus. Playing hurling on the street. Having a tennis ball in place of a sliothar. Going to school with a plastic bag for gear. Having one toothbrush at home and no toothpaste. When his older brother Jerry came back from England with deodorant and aftershave and Tom didn’t know what it was. He says they never went beyond the traffic lights further out Pearse Road. He says they wouldn’t have gone to Tory TopPark. He says they would stay between the traffic lights and they could name everyone in that area. He says they would go to the Lee Fields, or play with the Barrs or go for a spin on Sunday but they would never go further up to Ballypheane beyond the traffic lights. He says his grand uncle was at the first Barrs meeting which he thinks was around 1884. His name was Tom Harris and Tom says his name is in a book about the Barrs. Toms own grandmother was a Harris. He lived in the corner house which is still standing at the corner of the Lough and Pearse Road. Tom says they all had market gardens running back from the house. He says there’s still a bit of land there. Tom says up by the Ardmanning Bar there was a big old house which was the old Garda Station. He says it was a big old house that was still there when Tom was in his twenties but it’s gone now. Tom says the Harris Market garden was still there when he was young. He says a family called the Scanlon’s also had market gardens in Friars Walk, he says a relative of theirs, Mick Carroll still lives up on the corner from Tom. He says they had a lot of property which was all bought by compulsory order. Tom speaks of his grandaunt Madgie Harris who lived on Pouladuff Road. They had a bungalow but it’s long gone. He says those people from when he was a child are all long gone. He says when you’re young you don’t take much notice of things. Some people get older and you’d wonder are they making things up he says. He talks more on how he hated secondary school. He says you’d be afraid of the priests. You’d be afraid going to school he says. Secondary school was different. He says he’d walk out to Greenmount when he was going to school there. He says you’d walk everywhere. He says he’d walk there with his brothers or maybe a fellow he’d know from across the road. He says lads would be acting the fool and jumping on the bus, these were normal things he says. He says there was more freedom then. He says they would play hurley on the street. They would have a hurling stick but no sliothar, they would have a tennis ball instead. They had no helmet. Tom remembers going to school with a plastic bag, thee would have been no gear bags. He says at home they had one toothbrush and no toothpaste. He adds you’re a product of your environment. He talks about when his brother Jerry who spent years in England came home with deodorant and aftershave and Tom didn’t know what it was. Tom was about twelve at the time and Jerry was seven years older. He asks could young people today relate to that. |
0.13.52 - 0.17.30 |
When Tom went to Southampton in England to work. Coming back after ten months. Western Digital, Apple. Working in Odlum’s Mill for ten years. Cork Milling Company. Grants Mill. Fords, Dunlop’s and Gouldings. Why he played for the Barrs but not for Ballypheane. The Lough Parish. How they were all Barrs. “The Battle Of Ballypheane”. The row between the local soccer and GAA team in Tory Top Park. Father Fitzgerald. Fr Ormond who died in the Tuskar Rock plane crash in 1968. Theory that the plane was hit by a missile. How this was a very bad local tragedy and many from Ballypheane were on it. Other local tragedies and accidents. Tom speaks about when he went to Southampton in England to work. He only stayed there for ten months. He went over there after Fords. He said he wasn’t out of work for thirty years once he came back. He new a man called Tommy Welsh who worked in the mills over there so Tom went over to join him at that. Once he came back he worked in Western Digital and Apple. He worked in Odlums Mill for about ten years. He said it was dusty and he worked in the storeroom. It was a bit primitive. He says the front of it is preserved which was built in the 1930s and the main building was knocked. That was the National Flower Mill. Grants mill was the Cork Milling company. That was the big silo mill situated by where Goldberg’s pub is now. He says hundreds were employed there. Further down you had Fords, Dunlop’s and Gouldings. He says there’s nothing now, in terms of employment. The discussion moves to a brewery that is operating there now where Fords was (the Franciscan Well Brewery). Discussion moves back to his time playing hurling and Jamie notes he played with the Barrs but he didn’t play for Ballypheane. Tom says they were all Barrs. He says from the top traffic lights above them down to the Lough is all the Lough Parish but the reason he played with the Barrs was that his granduncle and uncle all played Barrs. James asks Tom if he heard of the Battle Of Ballypheane to which Tom says he heard something about it. Tom says he wasn’t there but he read about it. James goes into the story of how the soccer and GAA teams arrived at the pitch on Tory Top Park on the same day to play their finals. The soccer side put up their goalposts on the Connolly Road side and the GAA on Friars Walk end. Father Fitzgerald had to be called to sort things out to which Tom says in those days priests could sort things. If you saw the priest you’d nearly get a heart attack. Tom says he does not remember Fr Fitzgerald but he remembers Fr Ormond who died in the Tuskar rock disaster when the plane he was on crashed in 1968. He speaks about the theory that it was hit by a British missile. He says it was a big disaster for Ballypheane with many local dead and that the flight had been going to Lourdes. (Note: the parish priest of Ballypheane who was killed in Tuskar Rock was Fr Edward Hegarty) He speaks about other tragedies such as a girl who was involved with soccer who was killed. He speaks about a local girl June Atkins who was killed by a car. |
0.17.40 - 0.21.07 |
Glasshouses in Hartland’s Avenue. Nursery and cricket club on Hartland’s Avenue. How you could walk through where the cricket club was on the way to Glasheen but it is private now. Tomatoes being grown in the glasshouses. Cortex. Musgrave’s. CMP Dairies. Hickeys. How people didn’t have the money then. The Credit Union in Ballypheane. Building society. How the Credit Union got people out of poverty. The contrast with Gurranabraher which didn’t have a credit union at the time. Credit Unions run by the banks now. Tom says he remembers glasshouses in Hartland’s Avenue but these are gone years. Tom says if you go past the Hawthorne Bar up to the top of the road on the right was all glass houses and a nursery. He says there was a cricket club there too. He says they were there up to thirty five years but in later years they were nearly all broken. There’s all houses there now he says. The cricket club was there too. It is private now. He doesn’t know what the cricket club was called but at one point you could walk through it on the way to Glasheen but it was blocked off then. He says the glasshouses were still being used when he was young, he says you could see tomatoes being grown. In terms of local industries Cortex and Musgrave’s are mentioned. CMP Dairies also which he says are long gone. Hickeys also. Tom says people didn’t have the money then. A discussion about debit cards follows. The Credit Union in Ballypheane is discussed. He says his father used to have money in a building society when they were young. The contrast with Gurranabraher is discussed and how it didn’t have a credit union at the time. Tom says the credit unions are run by the banks now. People in the past would be ducking and avoiding paying them but they can’t do that now. |
0.21.08 - 0.26.24 |
Local character Elle Spillane. Charlie The Bogman. How he lived under a bridge and would be swimming in the water. How he used to swim naked. The murder of a girl in Black Ash. Going to see Bob Marley in concert in Dalymount Park Dublin in 1979. The Rolling Stones. Seeing the Pope in Limerick in 1979. How there was a traffic jam from Cork to Limerick and it took seven hours. The racetrack in Limerick. How the pope was waving. The upcoming papal visit. How the pope got a million visitors in 1979 but is just getting half a million now. How his father would and aunts would go to mass every morning. An uncle who would not go to mass. How religion used to give comfort. Memories of the moving statue of Ballinspittle. Going down to see it but not seeing it moving. How people came from all round to see it. How if you looked at it long enough it with the lights you would think it was moving. On being asked does he remember local Lough character Elle Spillane he says he heard of her but he doesn’t remember her. He speaks about a character called Charlie The Bogman who used to live under a bridge. Charley Coleman was his real name. He used to be swimming in the water by the bridge. He used to be naked going into the water. He had a house but lived under the bridge towards the Bell Field, it might have been the Snotty Bridge. Tom says he was harmless. He likens him to a new age traveller. He was around for a long time and lived to a good age. He says he had a beard and it was hard to put an age on him. He says you would be half afraid of him as a child. Tom talks about the case of a girl who was murdered out in Black Ash. He knew the girls father, he worked in Hickeys. He says that was the only murder he remembers locally. Tom talks about when he went to see Bob Marley in concert in Dalymount Park Dublin in 1979.He says he had a programme but gave it to someone. He went with his friend John Mahoney. He says it wasn’t too long before Bob Marley died. He mentions in passing that he also saw the Rolling Stones in concert. He said it was brilliant to see him. He said the atmosphere was brilliant. He says he used to have all his tapes in the car. It was the best concert he was ever at. He doesn’t recall anything Bob Marley said but he said he would have been half stoned anyway. He doesn’t remember who was supporting. He adds that Dalymount Park is gone too. He speaks of when he went to see the Pope when he visited Ireland in 1979. He travelled up to Limerick to see him. The journey took seven hours. He says there was a traffic jam the whole way from Cork To Limerick. It was in the racetrack in Limerick which is now gone. He says he passed and he thinks he waved at him. He talks about the upcoming visit of the current pope and compares it with how the last papal visit got a million visitors but just half a million are expected this time. He says that the pope has lost his appeal a bit. The older people loved him he says. His own father used to be going to mass every morning. He says Eleanor (Moore)’s mother would go to mass every morning. His other aunt Bridie would go every morning. He says one uncle wouldn’t go to mass, he jokes that he was a bit of a pagan. He says the religion use to give comfort. He talks about memories of the moving statue of Ballinspittle in the 1980’s. He says it was a big thing then. He went down there himself to have a look but didn’t see anything. He says if you looked at it long enough in the light it was supposed to move. He says people would be doing experiments. It died off then he says. |
0.26.26 - 0.29.46 |
The Fastnet Tragedy. The Buttevant train crash. When himself and some friends went to France. How they wouldn’t have known what sunscreen was. Staying in a tent. Visiting Paris and Nice. How France is very expensive. Visiting Tallin in Estonia. Starting working in Apple in 1990. Starting off in the line on quality. Making the boards on PCB. How that closed and was moved abroad. How most of the people he worked with there are now gone from there. How it was all Cork people working there at that time, how it is the opposite now. How they would send a taxi out to collect you for work. Tom mentions the Fastnet tragedy of 1979. He says he was down by Sherkin Island when that happened. He says everything happened in 79. He also talks about the Buttevant train crash. He says he was in France that year. He says himself and three of his friends went to France. He says you’d have no sunscreen that time, you wouldn’t know what it was. He says they went over in jeans and the sweat was pouring off them. They went camping in a tent and visited Paris and Nice. He says in more recent years he visited Tallin in Estonia, about fifteen years. He says he reckons people don’t have much there. Tom says he started working in Apple in 1990. He says they’re there since 1980. He started off on the line, he was on quality then. He was then making the boards on PCB but that closed. That was moved somewhere else. Most of his friends he worked with are gone from there and it’s a different kettle of fish up there now, it is now mostly call centre work. He says when he was there it was all Cork people. He says they would send out a cab to pick you up for going to work and you would make your own way home then. He says they wouldn’t do that now and they’re worth a trillion dollars. He says one of his friends is on the production line about ten years. A discussion on contracts and working conditions follows. |
0.29.52 - 0.35.10 |
Tramore Road. How it was called Hang Dog Road. Stories about how it got that name. A tannery that used to be out there and how stray dogs were made into buoys. Musgrave’s getting the name of the road changed. His brother John involved in greyhounds. Hunting with the Southern Hunt Club when they were younger. Going out hunting towards Kinsale, Belgooly. How it’s dying out now as farmers don’t want people on their land due to insurance claims. How they would hardly ever manage to catch anything. How they would be hours trying to find the dogs. Drag Hunting by the airport. How it would end in Billy Halloran’s pub, now known as Bull McCabe’s. Halloran’s orchard. What Halloran’s pub was like back then. Dogs in the pub. Harrier dogs. Celia’s pub. The outdoor toilet. How the bowling started then. Celia and Jack Neville. How the pub was falling down and many pubs of the time were like then. The route they took for the bowling, starting by Neville’s. Lamdmarks along the way. The pink wall. The bridge. The pump. The Three Sticks. Tiger Aherne’s. Tiger Aherne the bowler. Finishing by Corcoran’s Bridge. How it was all uphill and all downhill. James asks Tom about Tramore Road and if they knew it under a different name. Tom says they did but he struggles to remember what it was called. Jamie suggests Hang Dog Road and Tom say’s this was what it was called. He asks why it was called that and James goes through a story of how there was a tannery and they would bring stray dogs out there to make buoys for fishermen so they would hang the dogs there. James’s says Musgrave’s got the name changed. Tom says his brother John is involved with greyhounds. His brother Dennis was involved with them as well. Tom goes on to say when they were younger himself and his siblings were involved with the Southern Hunt Club who were based on Bandon Road. He says they would go out hunting anywhere, Kinsale, Belgooly but its dying out now as farmers won’t allow access to their land. He says if a fellow broke his leg on their land he would make a claim. He says its not very fashionable now but anytime they went hunting they’d catch almost nothing, anything they’d find would be half dead from disease. They’d be hours trying to find the dogs then. It was good in the Winter he says. He says they would have drag hunting then up by the airport and it would finish Billy Hallorans pub which is now Bull McCabe’s. Billy Halloran owned Halloran’s Orchard and when he sold that he opened the pub. Tom knew Billy well and he had the pub for years. He adds its still there though now more like a restaurant. He says the pub was very old fashioned back then , there would be dogs in the pub. He says its different back then. People would keep harrier dogs in the home. People wouldn’t have a harrier in the house now. Tom speaks about Celia’s pub. He says it was falling apart. The toilet was on the outside he says. The bowling would start there. He mentions Celia Neville and Jack Neville who ran it. He says it was “falling down” but that’s how pubs were like then, rough and ready and dark. He speaks about the freezing cold of the outdoor toilet. He says you can still see the wall of the old pub down where it used to be. Tom talks about the route of the bowling. You’d start by Neville’s and he talks about landmarks along the way such as the pink wall which belonged to Barrett’s. The bridge. Maddens corner. The pump. Up Matthew Hill and the Three Sticks, up to Tiger Aherne’s, Tom adds he was a bowler. They would finish by Corcoran’s Bridge, it was all uphill and all downhill. He talks about the traffic nopw and how there are hundreds of houses up Pouladuff and there were harldly any cars back then. He says people haven’t time for things like bowling as time is at a premium. |
0.35.22 - 0.41.25 |
Playing Rings and darts. Ma Dullea’s pub. How these pastimes are not as popular these days. Playing cards. The decline in the number of card playing teams. How in the past you could drive after a few pints. Discussion of recent road crash in Donegal. Man who he knew who lived in Donegal and who described it as a kip. Socialising in Barrack St when younger. De Lacey House on Oliver Plunket St. The Gilt Edge pub on Washington St. The Grand Parade Hotel. How then you would walk everywhere and people didn’t do cabs. Fordes pub. Bradley’s pub. Current pubs on Barrack St. Comparisons with Barrack St and Shandon St. Eugenes pub on Shandon St which was owned by Theo Cahill of the Dixies. Anthony “the Bishop” Coughlan. The Chimes bar. More discussion of Cork pubs. How he likes to support the small pubs and shops. Pat Buckley’s bar by the North Infirmary. Dennehy’s pub on the Coal Quay. The Harp bar. Tom says he plays rings and darts, his local team would be in Ma Dullea’s pub. He would be playing all over the Southside but this has also declined in popularity. He says playing cards has gone the same way. There were once sixty four cards teams but there’s only eighteen now. He says before you could just drive away in the morning after a few pints but you can’t now. There follows a discussion about a recent fatal crash in Donegal. Tom says they are mad for rallying up there. He says he knew he knew a man who lived in Donegal and who said it was a kip. Tom says when he was younger he would socialise mainly on Barrack St. He says he would also go to De Lacey House on Oliver Plunket St which was great for ballads. He also mentions the Gilt Edge pub which is now Preachers. The Grand Parade Hotel. He says you walked everywhere and that time people didn’t really do cabs. Everyone gets cabs now and he quips people have got lazy. He says he never goes into town by night now socialising. Tom says he goes these days to Fordes pub on the bottom of Barrack St. There follows a discussion about Bradleys pub on Barrack St and a barmaid called Lavinia and a discussion on who owns it. A discussion on Barrack St and its pubs follows such as the Pigalle, Tom Barry’s, the Brown Derby and Barbarella’s. Comparisons are made with Shandon St and improvements made to Barrack St. He says Shandon St has gone “cat”. A discussion on Shandon St follows and the Old Reliable and Eugene’s which Tom says was owned by Theo Cahill of the Dixies. A further discussion on Eugenes follows in which Tom speaks of a regular Anthony Coughlan known as “the Bishop”. Tom says the Chimes pub is now gone which was Dinny Donovans place. The Shandon Arms is discussed. The Wolfe Tone is mentioned as closed. Tom says the Gerard Griffin pub is open again. The Tower pub is mentioned as closed. Tom says he likes to support small pubs like small shops, you would like to see them kept open. Tom expresses surprise when James says that Pat Buckley’s pub by the North Infirmary has closed recently. Tom asks is Dennehy’s on the Coal Quay still open to which James says it is. Tom speaks more of Forde’s pub. He speaks about the Harp bar near where he lives. |
0.41.28 - 0.48.05 |
How their aunts Kitty and Bridey would do the shopping when he was young. A small shop down Pouladuff Road. Hegarty’s Shop. How there were no supermarkets then. Corner shops that would have a book marking what you owed and you pay at the end of the month. The gasman calling around. The gas meter. Going off on a holiday once a year with the aunts. Staying in a caravan in Garretstown. One of the Harris’s whose job it was to light the public gas lamps. Toms father who used to drive the horse and cart for the Harris’s to the Coal Quay. Memories of seeing horses and carts around. A man who kept pigs and who would come around on a horse and cart collecting slops. Murphy’s bacon factory. Lunham’s bacon factory on Tramore Road. Bonfire Night. It being held just across from where they lived. How when they were young they would be singing around the fire. How in later years it got messier. Weeks of preparation collecting material, tyres and wooden pallets etc. How it was the highlight of the year along with Halloween. Young and old alike participating. Playing the squeezebox. How you could leave your door open that time with the key in the door. How people could walk in and ask if they had sugar or some milk. Leaving the key in the door up to twenty years ago. How if a neighbour wanted a hand with something you would help them out. Community spirit in Ballypheane. Tom says he knew nothing about shopping growing up as their aunts Kitty and Bridey would do all the shopping as they reared them. He mentions a small shop down Pouladuff Road, Hegartys Shop that is long gone. He says there were no supermarkets then, there were small corner shops and he says they were robbing people. They would have a book in the shop marking down what you owed and you pay at the end of the month. The gasman would come then and he might give something back, he adds there was a meter for the gas and points where it was in his house though it is now blocked off. He says they would go off once a year for a holiday with the aunts and they would be bored and wanting to come back after a day. They would go to Garretstown or somewhere like that staying in a caravan. Their uncle or someone that they knew would drop them down. Tom mentions a relative, one of the Harris’s who worked in the gasworks and whose job it was to light the public gas lamps. This was going back many years he says. He says his father told him he used to drive a horse and cart for the Harris’s down to the Coal Quay. Tom says he remembers horses and carts around himself. He remembers a man who kept pigs and who used to come around in a horse and cart and collect slops. Tom speaks about Murphy’s bacon factory and Lunham’s which was up Tramore Road. He says a lot of the big supermarkets got rid of a lot of these places. Tom speaks about Bonfire Night. He says there would be across from where they grew up. He say when they were young they would be singing around the bonfire but in later years it got very messy. He says you would be involved in collecting the material, timber pallets and tyres but mostly timber. He says it be prepared weeks in advance. He says the corporation would sometimes take away the pile of material. He says it was one of the highlights of the year along with Halloween. He says young and old would be out and people would be playing the squeezebox and the banjo. He says you could leave your door open that time. People could walk in and ask if they had some sugar or a drop of milk. He says that’s how it was then. He says they would leave the key in their front door up to twenty years ago. If people wanted a hand with something you would give them a hand. A general discussion of community and Ballypheane follows. He speaks about community spirit in Ballypheane. He talks about community spirit in rural places such as Skibbereen which he would visit. He speaks about how neighbours helped out when he had to look after his uncle. He mentions how he has the key for his neighbours for helping out. He speaks about a woman whose neighbour helps out with giving her eye drops. |
0.48.09 - 0.51.55 |
Playing in the Lough Leagues. Danny Coughlan. Playing with the Barrs through Greenmount School. Cork players Gerald Mack and Peter Doolan how they started off with the Barrs. How the Barrs would come to the school to ask them to play with the team. When the Barrs were based on Bandon Road and then moved to Togher. When you had to pay to go to Barrs matches. How to an older generation they would be a Bandon Road team. The Ballypheane team considered junior. Gerald Mack. The pressures of running a team. Having to turn up Saturday. How he used to run a team but wouldn’t do it again. How he has great time for the GAA. How people who criticise it are those who wouldn’t give the time for it. How people in Ballypheane didn’t have much to do with soccer or rugby. He mentions Sundays Well and Dolphins rugby teams. He says of Dolphins that not many people in Ballypheane had anything g to do with them and they all came from other pats of the city. He says the only local of note to play with them was Phil O Callaghan. Tom says he played in the Lough Leagues hurling. He says that was with Danny Coughlan. He says the Lough Leagues have been brought back recently. He says Greenmount School was also the Barrs. He says famous Cork players Gerald Mack and Peter Doolan started off with the Barrs from when the Barrs would call out to the school. He says in later years he was involved in street leagues for about eight years with Out The Barrs. He says the Barrs were originally based on Bandon Road and then moved out to Togher. He says they never really interacted with the local community in Togher but they had to go somewhere. He says out the Barrs you had to pay to get into matches when he was young. He says nowadays they are seen as a Togher team but to the older generation they would be Bandon Road. He says they had a pitch in Togher years ago but they were considered Bandon Road. He says the Ballypheane team were only considered junior. He says Ballypheane had some good players like Gerald Mack whose father played with the Lough. You can’t get people to run a team now he says, he did it for a while but he wouldn’t do it again. He says you have to turn up Saturday and Sunday mornings. He says then a mother might be an hour late and you’d have to wait around minding their child, he jokes that it was like a babysitting service. He thinks the GAA are a brilliant organisation. He says they had nothing to do with Casement soccer team, it was all GAA. He says it was the same with rugby. He says of Dolphins Rugby Team that not many people in Ballypheane had anything to do with them and they all came from other pats of the city. He says the only local of note to play with them was Phil O Callaghan who played with Ireland and the Lions. He says rugby was a different kind of middle class game. |
052.00 - 0.57.45 |
Stories told heard about the War Of Independence period. Connie Neenan whom Neenan Park is named after. A story heard about a girl who was shot dead on Washington St. Storys read about atrocities. How parts of Cork City were very republician. Story about how Connie Neenan was supposed to have stolen a load of money. Family links with the sculptor Edward Ambrose. How he was sent to Rome by the people of the Lough Parish. Tom’s brother going in to see his work in the Crawford. The Crawford Schools new premises on Grand Parade. How this used to be a gentlemen’s club. Work social clubs. Dunlop’s club. How Fords didn’t have a club. Odlum’s Mill club. Apple club. Joe Murphy Road. Joe Murphy who died on hunger strike. A story heard that his aunts friend Peggy Murphy’s father was the man the British had been looking for. Joe Murphy’s nephews the Delaney’s. How the council were prevented from knocking the Joe Murphy house. Tom says you would hear the odd thing about the War Of Independence period. He says when they were out the Barrs Neenan Park they would play Neenan Park which was named after Connie Neenan. They would hear a story about a girl on Washington St and a bullet hit the ground and killed her. He says you’d hear that and wouldn’t know if it was true or not. He said you might read books and read about how Connie Neenan was supposed to have shot young lads. He says parts of Cork City were very republician. He says people say about Connie Noonan that he stole a load of money. Connie Neenan is long dead he says. Tom speaks of the famous sculptor Edward Ambrose who was a relative of his grandmother. He went to Rome and was sent there by the people of the Lough Parish. Tom says he lived past the lights on Pearse Road. Tom say his elder brother went down to the Crawford to see his work and said shure he’s dead years. Tom did some research on him and he has some work in the Crawford School. Talk then turns to the Crawfords new premises on Grand Parade which used to be a gentlemen’s club. He says CIT bought that. Talk moves to social clubs in the places he worked in. Dunlop’s had a social club and Fords had none. The mill had a sort of a club. He says Apple had a brilliant social club and he says he had brilliant nights out with them. He says they’re planning on having a 30th anniversary reunion for the Apple staff. He says Apple was the only job he was in where you could sit down and work, every other club you were standing. He says he was never at the Grocers Club which James says is one of the last clubs of its type in town and across from the Ivory Tower. James asks if Tom has any stories about Joe Murphy whom Joe Murphy Road is named after. Tom says Joe Murphy lived down Pouladuff Road and he was the Granduncle of one of Tom’s friends. Joe Murphy died on hungerstrike during the War Of Independence. Tom says one of his aunts friends Peggy Murphy it was supposed to be her father they were looking for but he’s not sure if this is true or not. A discussion of Joe Murphy’s hungerstrike in Cork Prison follows. He says he knows Joe Murphy’s nephews the Delaney’s who lived in his old house and it has a plaque on the wall. He says that the council were trying to knock Joe Murphy’s house one time but they were stopped from knocking them. |
0.57.48 - 1.02.00 |
The significance of place names in Ballypheane named after Republican martyrs. Wondering why they were named after them and not out in Bishopstown or Douglas. Being proud of the street being named after Padraig Pearse. Willy Pearse, Padraig Pearses brother and how he was also executed. The school the Pearse brothers ran. How some people locally are named Pearse after Padraig Pearse. People ringing about broadband and spelling it incorrectly. The 1966 50’th anniversary commemorations of 1916. The attempt to blow up De Valera at the Republican Plot at St Finbarr’s Cemetery. Jerry Madden who survived the explosion and lost an eye and a leg. How the bomb went off too soon killing one of the plotters. Tom Barry. How he would see Tom Barry Around town drinking. How Tom Barry’s sister used to be in the Red Cross with Tom’s sister Helen. How Tom Barry was private and would not talk about the Flying Column days. How he would see him and people would say that’s Tom Barry. About the terrain down in West Cork and its suitability for fighting an enemy. James asks did it mean anything to him growing up with all the place names after republican martyrs such as Pearse Road, Kent Road etc. Tom says he used to wonder why they were named after them and not out in Bishopstown or Douglas. He says they were proud of being named after Pearse. He talks about the Plaque to Pearse down the road and mentions that Pearse brother Willy was executed as well. A discussion about the Pearse brothers and the school they ran follows. Her talks about the way some people in the area are called Pearse after Padraig Pearse and spell it the same way.. He says people would ring about broadband or whatever and would be spelling it Pierce. Tom speaks of memories of the 1966 50’th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. James asks him about the bomb plot to blow up De Valera at the Republican Plot. Tom says he knew one of those involved who survived, another plotter was killed he says. Tom explains that De Valera was coming down. He doesn’t know whether the plotters were trying to kill De Valera or not. James goes on to say that De Valera was set to be there at three O Clock and they set the bomb for the wrong three O Clock and the bomb went off prematurely. He speaks of Jerry Madden who came from a Republican family and who lost an eye and a leg who died up to a few years ago. He speaks about how you would see Tom Barry, the Old IRA commander around. He sassy if Tom Barry around you wouldn’t say anything to him. Tom says he would see him around town drinking. He says Tom Barry’s wife used to be in the Red Cross with Helen, Toms sister. He says he doesn’t think Tom Barry wouldn’t discuss anything about the War Of Independence or anything like that, he thinks he would be private. Tom never spoke to him himself but he remembers seeing him around and fellows saying that’s Tom Barry. He says he works for the Vincent De Paul and he goes down to West Cork a lot and he says you can see how its great terrain for mounting an ambush. A discussion follows where James says he’s from East Cork, Youghal. |
1.02.05 - 1.13.40 |
Wren Boys on St Stephens Day. His cousins the Colemans in Halfway. Martin Coleman Cork hurler. The Coleman’s petrol station and post office in Halfway. How rural areas are in decline. The Wren Boys outfits, how they hardly ever came around in the city. Trick Or Treating on Halloween. How they never went beyond the traffic lights when they were young. The dump. “The Dumpa”. How they used to play in this. How recycling has taken over. The old city dump. How travellers used to be there collecting stuff. The travellers in Black Ash. Old barrel top caravans. A place in Blarney that would hire them out to tourists. A traveller man who would come and fix his grandmothers pots. How industrial farming and the Traveller Act brought in by Charley Haughey. Toms Grandfather Jerimiah Falvey who worked down the docks and died in 1946. Tom’s uncle Derry. How Toms family lived for a while on Grand Parade and his older brother was born there. How two uncles and two aunts lived locally. His aunt Kitty Falvey getting married. How people would stick to their own place then. Tom going up the Northside to play hurling against the under age Na Piarsaigh. He also mentions Brian Dillon’s up the Tank Field. Playing against the Glen. How there was a big rivalry between the Barr’s and Blackrock and the Glen. How one they would be all fighting and it’s more refined now. How you need rivalry in sport. Cork versus Kilkenny 1972 his first All Ireland. Cork winning the football in 73. Pairc Ui Caoimh. The old Athletics Ground. Croagh Pairc. Thoughts on the upcoming Liam Miller testimonial match. The GAA ban on foreign sports. Story from James about how he played both rugby and GAA and the GAA changed the days of the training. Tom on how the Barr’s would have an awkward relationship with the soccer club Greenwood. Christy Cooney GAA president. Declan Dalton. Joe Deane. Tom says there would have been Wren Boys around on St Stephens Day. He says he never did it himself but they would have called locally. He speaks of cousins in Halfway who were very into it. Tom’s family would visit them and they would come up once a year. He mentions Martin Coleman who played in goal for Cork hurling. His mother and his mother were sisters. They were very big into the Wren Boys in the country now. He says they would call once a year. They had a petrol station and a post office down there but there’s nothing there now he says. He speaks about how rural areas are being devastated. He says the Wren Boys would be wearing all kinds of things on their head and you’d be half afraid of them. He says they hardly ever came around in the city just a few young lads messing. He says they would trick or treat on Halloween. He says they wouldn’t have a bonfire locally on Halloween but some other places would. He says as young lads they wouldn’t be fighting with youths from other areas, he jokes they weren’t worth it. He says they never strayed beyond the traffic lights. He says they would be called in around nine O clock when they were around fifteen. He talks about The dump or “The Dumpa” as it was known locally. He says it would be all rats but nothing like the dumps now. He remembers the old city dump. He says now it’s all recycling. He says then there would be all beds and clothes thrown around and the travellers would be there loading their vans with stuff. He speaks of the travellers who would camp in Black Ash. He says he found them all right, they would be doing their own thing. He never went down to have a ride of the horses as he’d be afraid of a horse. He supposes some fellas would. He says there would be caravans parked down there. He recalls seeing the old barrel top caravans. He says there was a place in Blarney that would hire out these and they were very popular with tourists at one point but he supposes they wouldn’t be able to travel on the roads these days. He remembers a traveller coming around fixing his grandmothers pots and his grandmother would give him some money. A discussion follows on how they draw social welfare these days and how industrial farming has affected their lifestyle and also the Traveller Act brought in by Charley Haughey. He say when he was young they were fine. He says his grandmother is dead since 1966 so it was before that. He says his Grandfather Jerimiah died in 1946 when he was 63 and he worked down the docks. He had a bad heart. He had a son called Derry, Tom’s uncle. Tom says they lived in Pouladuff at first before moving to Ballypheane. Tom can’t remember any of his own time living in Bandon Road when he was young. He says his family lived prior to that on the Grand Parade where his older brother Jerry was born. He says his father lived in another house when they got that house when Tom’s mother died, the house he lives in now was his aunts house. He says his family lived at 220 and 223. He says there were two uncles and two aunts living locally then one Aunt Kitty got married, she is the mother of his cousin Eleanor Moore. He says then you kept to your own place. Tom says that he himself would go up the Northside playing hurling against Na Piarsaigh underage and Brian Dillon’s up the Tank Field. He says other than that some people wouldn’t go outside their own road. He says he didn’t care about the fact that he was going up the Northside. It was like an outing going to play. They would be going playing against Na Piarsaigh, Mayfield, Brian Dillon’s plus the Glen and Blackrock and also Douglas. He says there was big rivalry between the Barr’s and the Glen and Blackrock. In the past they would be fighting and “having murder” but it’s more refined now. He says you have to have rivalry and it can’t be a gentleman’s game. Tom says the first ALL-Ireland was in 1972 which was Cork and Kilkenny in hurling. He says Kilkenny won that. He says he went to see Cork win the football the following year. He went to loads of All Irelands after. He has been to the new Croagh Pairc as well as Pairc Ui Caoimh. He speaks about the old Athletic Park that was there before Pairc Ui Caoimh. He speaks about the newly built Pairc Ui Caoimh and compares it with Croaic Pairc. He speaks about the upcoming Liam Miller testimonial match which he thinks will be brilliant. He speaks about the foreign rules ban and about how they allowed Michael Jackson and American football. He says that when you see in a village the GAA pitch and the soccer pitch is better then you know they’re not cooperating. James tells a story of how he used to play rubgy and also GAA and that when the GAA found out they changed the day of training to coincide with it so he had to make a choice and choose rugby. Tom says the Barr’s would be like that with the soccer club Greenwood. He says Greenwood would be trying to help with the Barr’s would be awkward. He says the Barr’s haven’t won anything in years. James says since Christy Cooney took over as GAA president the money has been flying into the clubs. A discussion about Youghal follows and players such as Declan Dalton and Joe Deane are discussed. Tom says Joe Deane is a small man but tough. |
1.13.50 - 1.18.33 |
More on Ballypheane. Pat Allen “Pat The Picket”. How he was a great character and was well loved by all. How he would dress up in outfits including as Santa. How he died of cancer. How he would have placards for every occasion. Another character called Donny Sutton from Tory Top Road. How Pat The Picket would be wearing a black bin. How he started protesting when he was young. Pat The Picket. Going to the Republican Plot in St Finbarr’s. A man who is involved in the volunteer pipe band. How in days gone by the priest or doctor would have done house calls but that’s no more. James asks Tom about legendary stories about Ballypheane. Tom says that they never had much to do with Ballypheane. He does speak about the well known character. Pat Allen who was better known as Pat The Picket. He says he knew him well. He was a great character and people used to love him. If you had a grievance he was the man to go to. He would dress as Santa and all kinds of outfits. He says he was great for the community. Tom says he died of cancer and wouldn’t have been much older than himself. He thinks he had a brother who died as well. He would have a placard for every occasion. He speaks about another character called Donny Sutton from Tory Top Road. James talks about him that he’d be wearing all kinds of outfits like Sergeant Pepper and A Roman Centurion. Tom goes on to say that Pat The Pickett would be sometimes dressed in a black bin. Tom say Pat was always doing the picketing and protesting since his teens. Tom says he would be brought to court and the judge would say to fine him a pound. He would always be out the Republican Plot. He says they would never go to St Josephs Cemetery, always the Republican Plot in St Finbarrs and they would hear the marching band coming and they would go out with them, people would bring their children. He says not people go out now. He speaks about a man who is the volunteer pipe band, his name is Donie, he doesn’t know his surname. He says there wouldn’t have been stations in the house, that would have been a country thing. He says in days gone by the priest or doctor would have called out to the grandmother but that sort of thing is gone by the board now, he says there’s no house call’s now. The interview is brought to an end and Tom jokes that we’ll have to come back in ten years. 1.18.33.5 end of interview. |
0.00.00 - 0.00.00 |
G O’D: Thinking back to the street you grew up on, are there, are there any kind -- are there many kind of major landmarks or streets and lanes nearby, that have since been demolished or got rid of?
M C: Well, I suppose there was Jackson’s Terrace which is now gone. It was off Langford Row. That’s the one that sticks out. I remember as a child saying when I was bigger I’d cross Langford Row and go over and see the -- I thought they were spectacular houses. Sure the poor people probably didn’t think -- they were two-storey houses and a narrow kind of entrance to them and obviously like, the distance between their front doors was very little and I think there was a toilet down at the end, a communal. But they used to say it was beautifully kept, you know. The people kept the place very well. But there was -- like you couldn’t -- you’d only get a bicycle in between the, the houses but I thought it was -- you know, as a child. And I was going to cross the road and see those houses, and by the time I was ready to cross the road, Jackson’s Terrace was knocked and ‘tis the apartments there in, in -- it was a garage afterwards and then ‘tis an apartment in Langford now. And I suppose like, that whole community at the end of High Street, like there was about seven houses, like cottages in Langford Row, which was, you know, whole families. And then there was Mrs Donnelly and Curtin the bookie, and Fitzgibbon’s and Cosgrave’s and Curtin’s and Dorgan’s shop, all taken, and at the other side of the road then, there was Houston’s pub and all the houses in Summer Hill South, their gardens were shortened to make the road wide. So ‘twas a -- and then there was a whole -- there was as many more, there was about five or six houses in Summer Hill South taken as well, small houses. So ‘twas like a whole community just for progress but it was a whole community removed, you know.
G O’D: Mm, and where were they -- would they have -- where were they re-settled then?
M C: Well it -- if the people owneded the houses they just were compensated and they bought houses elsewhere, and if they didn’t they were housed in different places, mostly in Ballyphehane.
J E: Em how would you think the the kids of today’s lives would be different to yours and what kind of message might you give to younger generations.
P K: To young children, to young generations. Oh my Goodness em you know well there times are so different for them now that the thing I suppose to try and make them realise that the simplest things can be most enjoyable and most entertaining. That they don’t have to have everything they see advertised you know? That family and friends are much more important than material things. It would be hard for them maybe to understand that now. Em certainly eh there’s such a gap there I suppose there are two generations now between when I was a child and the little children growing up now and there’s such a gap in in experience and em oh you know that the computer age having come in and the television age having come in that it got terribly hard to explain to children the happiness that the children of my age had in the simplest things of life and what gave them the biggest thrills in life would be just not understood by the children nowadays. I suppose if the Grannies of nowadays talked one to one with the little children of nowadays they’d be absolutely fascinated but it would be as it is actually a different age they’d be talking about because no more than my age group would understand what the Victorian age was like and what children had then as compared to what I had, growing up. So it would be very difficult only to tell them to keep simple and to keep, have a great regard for for people rather than things. That people are what matter, I would say. That the kindnesses and the neighbourliness that we had as as children em should be kept going with the children nowadays. I think that’s really as I say it would be very hard to make them understand you know that the things that they can buy aren’t as important as the things that they have and the things that they are themselves because they’re very precious and every person is precious, you know?
J E: Em.
P K: So that’s that’s really all I could say about it and about those little ones.
P McC: And of course, we had the fishermen there then on the quay. I mean they used put their boats there and their nets. You know we had.
CO’C: And how many around would there have been?
PmcC; Well, they mostly the fishermen with families, they would go back the generations again, you know. The Flynns, they were mostly families even to this day now they fished down outside Blackrock. The Quilligans, they fish on Blackrock area, that’s their fishing rights now that’s going back generations.
CO’C: And the men that you remember being out here, where would they have lived?
PmcC: Oh they’d lived on Witherington’s Hill or Cobbidge’s Lane. They’d have lived on the lanes around and they actually used have their little boats there and the nets then would be thrown over the quay wall.
CO’C: Okay.
PmcC: You know even in my time. But they were families then again. You know like the butchers were families. ‘Twas all kept within families, the trade, well the fishermen wouldn’t be trades but the trades were and you couldn’t get into them. So if you were, if you had nothing you couldn’t kind of get a trade because ‘twas closed shop. You know.
GoD: when you were looking inside what sparked your memory, of any of the articles inside, reminiscences. What got you thinking of all these memories?
FC: Yeah. The layout was. We had a very special hat department inside the door I’ll always remember. I spent most of my time in the men’s outfitting they called it. The layout was different. All the stuff was in drawers. Today stuff is on the racks. It is hanging everywhere. But that time, a person came in for socks or anything you had to pull out a drawer and they’d pick and choose. The display was different. And you had these long mahogany counters. And I remember the hat department. While you got some lovely customers, you’d get some, those days, you’d get some very troublesome people. Over the years they became known, and they became known from other shops. We’d see them coming along, maybe down the stairs or coming up the store and we could always duck into the hat department and get away from them. We had great hideouts. Sometimes we could even manage to duck the boss if we saw him on the war path. The layout was better from that point of view. Everything is more open now, you couldn’t get away with anything. There was more crack as well. There was more jokes and playing pranks on people than there is today.
My father, God rest him, told me a story that in the early days in the Arcade, well before my time now, or your time, of course, they used to sleep in there. They had a dormitory, especially for fellas coming up from the country. And they’d great fun when fellas would come up from the country. One fella, pretending to be a doctor and he’d be examining and you know and all this. But there was one story told, that they used to go to bed at night. And it was almost like a boarding school. The supervisor would come along with a torch to make sure they were all in bed. Apparently one night one fella ducked out to a dance, and the authorities didn’t know anything about it. They dressed up one of the dummies and put it into his bed in the dormitory. Your man came back from the dance, got into his bed and nothing was known about it. That was one of the funny stories I heard. So, that is as much as I can tell you.
GoD: Ah, that’s brilliant. That’s great. Thanks ever so much.
DMC. After the death of Fr. O’Flynn, as we know, the loft continued on….
PG. Well it did too because, at that time we still had the original founders like Gus Healy and Eileen Curran and, and others: Tom Vesey, Teddy Healy, Norry O’Brian, Norry,…..Norry Healy, sorry as and. Quite a number of others that, that,…..Jonny Gallaher, she was another woman that, who came into that as well and, and they, they were there with us as well. So they brought us along another step of the way, and Gus Healy was absolutely wonderful that he was able to bridge that gap because he knew Fr. O’Flynn from the time that the loft was founded in 1924, right up until he died and then came in and then took over the role of, of chairman. And was chairman up till the time he died in 1986. So we were lucky, and of course, Eileen Curran was Fr. O’Flynn's disciple and she had his interpretation. She knew the plays backwards. She could quote from any of the plays without ever looking at a book, you know. And we were lucky. And then, like, we were maturing ourselves. Pierce, of course, my brother, was that much ahead of me and he, he was well into it as well. And you had Pat Lehane and other stalwarts of that particular time. Now I would have to say then a lot of the others had drifted away, like the Michael Twomey’s and Marie Twomey’s weren’t as and…. those that were around at the time when I mentioned like the: Kevin Sheehan’s, the Michael Mcauliffe and all of these. They, Monn Murphy’s, they had moved on a bit. Now one or two of them, like Monn, came back and did a few parts with us at later stages, you know. I know Monn did a reprise of Hamlet in, I think the mid, the mid 60's, 1964. She came back and reprised her role as ‘Ophelia’, you know. And Tom Vesey, of course, a very old great old stalwart of the original cast. He, he was there up until he died I think 1966. So they, we were lucky, you know. But then we had matured enough to more or less bring it on ourselves and Pierce immersed himself, my brother that is, immersed himself in the work of Fr. O’Flynn and Eileen Curran. When Eileen Curran passed on in 1977. And we also had a, a, a, an outsider who's contributed hugely to the loft of the period and he was a man by the name of John Morley. And he came into the loft in the early 70's and he, he, he was quite an outstanding character. He was English, old English, retired actor living in Cork for a period and he, he was, he was a great man of theatre, you know. And he taught us a lot of things apart from…. the plays and producing and all that, you know. He taught us a lot about creating properties and you know, and settings and all that as well. And he was an extremely talented man and wonderful guy and he understood Fr. O’Flynn and where Fr. O’Flynn was coming, from the word go. He had in fact in Dublin been a friend of Fr. O’Flynn’s nephew, John O’Flynn. And when he came to Cork he, he, he, he was involved briefly I think with The Everyman Theatre. But then he came along to us. And he, he was with us for many happy years really up until….. 1977. He was producing at the time that Eileen died rather suddenly on us in the middle of the last few rehearsals for, for The Winter’s Tale in 1977. And she was; Susan Cummins was a very good girl at the time who, who filled in, in between, between the Saturday and the following Wednesday she, she filled in for him …and she took over the role that was vacated by Eileen Curran, which was quite a substantial role actually in that play. And she, she was to give a very credible performance but John Morley, he directed that. And I learnt a great deal from him because I played ‘Leontes’, the king, in that I had a major role for the first half of, of the play and he was great. But he eventually; he was a member of the high religion and he was asked to go over to Bermuda with his wife, Valery, who was a lovely lady as well. That was about the end of the period where we had come out of The Opera House. We went back into the opera house in the 70s and then did quite a number of plays in The Opera House. But eventually, the burden of, of, of mounting pro plays in the opera house became a bit heavy for us all because we were all young and married and working and that sort of thing. So we tended to go back into The Theatre of the South, a little theatre in Castle Street and then after that then, when they built the The Cork Arts Club then in Knapp’s square we gravitated to there. We kinda, generally speaking, do most of our plays there now at the, at the moment anyway, but. So, that was, we were helped an awful lot to be able to do that, you know. Now, and I'm glad to say that there’s a new generation coming on after us headed up by Ciaran O’Leary and others, and Ray Brothers and Mike O’Neill and hopefully they'll carry the organisation on further into, into the next number of years.
S. H: Did you ever hear the phrase ‘‘ lime burners '' applied to the people around Millfield, the Millfield Cottages?
L. F: No.
S. H: I only mentioned that because somebody told me that, that was a name in the twenties and thirties sometimes applied half-jokingly later to people from around that area because apparently
A lot of, quite a few people from that area joined the British forces in the First World War.
L. F: Is that right?
S H: And, yeah so the story went, and then after independence people didn't want much to do
With them, you see because they were “lime burners”, and if somebody's been burning lime there's a horrible stench from them.
L. F: I don't know?
S. H: No I just thought that you know, perhaps you had heard the phrases, it's interesting to see how far these phrases carry.
L. F: The only things I can tell you about the British thing right is, that em, my own mum was nearly killed by a hand grenade in the buildings down here you know Maddens buildings down here, she had just eh, she was in the shop getting messages…
S. H: What shop would that be?
L. F: That would have been, do you know it could have been Murnane’s, just one of the shops down the street here right, it had to have been right, and she had just got in the door right, and there was this unmerciful bang right, just right where she is and it damaged the door even right ...so.
S. H: What happened?
L. F: Somebody threw a hand grenade, at one of the Brits I think, maybe one of the rebels, threw it.
S. H: Was anyone hurt?
L. F: No, no one hurt.
S. H: You, can't, she wouldn't remember the year, it would have been 1919 or 1920...
L. F: Well she was living in the buildings at that time so, she wasn't married right so she must have been only a teenager, she must have been em, probably around fourteen or fifteen, but I remember her telling me that story.
S. H: Did she also tell you something about hearing the shots that killed Thomas MacCurtain?
L. F: She did, yeah...
S. H: What could she remember about that?
L. F: The shots, remember, em, remember hearing the bangs at the time of the, and, I, I'm not absolutely sure of the story but I think at the time, she might have been in somebody else’s house near at hand when it happened, and these bangs went around the place, and nobody, people are used to hearing bangs around then as well of course right ... and, or I said there's some shots gone off right, and it's only then did it come out that they were after being shot you know. So she did hear the shots, yeah.
S. H: Did any of them have sort of Nationalist or Republican leanings, your family, or did events more or less pass them by?
L. F: They did pass them by but there was always a close, like that thing like about the bomb now going off right, something similar happened to my father because he was a barber first, right, in his young days, when the British people were ruling completely, right, and they used have these sort of eh, I don't know what you'd call them, I suppose eh, this thing that they'd come in with their guns and search every place, do you know what I mean? So they came into the Barbershop and all hand up in the air immediately right and they searched the place and they gave it a real gruelling over, I mean right down into the pots and pans and whatever it was that they had in the thing looking for bombs and he was only a young fella at the time serving his time, he told me this and em, he eh, he was scared out of his livings, because they'd put the gun in your face and that was it right, and when they went away the guys that were, the other two barbers that were there were laughing about the whole thing, and they put their hand up the chimney and pulled down this box full of soot and opened it and here's two guns inside in it, the box right...
S. H: You could have all been shot maybe yeah...
L. F: Oh, no problem, you know, and he said that was the closest brush that he ever came across.
S. H: Were they Black and Tans or Auxiliaries or Regulars or could he remember?
L. F: The guys that came in were the Black and Tans, right, and the guys that were the rebels, or what we used to call em in those days, what were they? The IRA I suppose, the Old IRA I suppose, you know...
S. H: That's very interesting.
S H: Was Tshombe’s army quite a well-disciplined army by the standards of the place?
G G: Tshombe’s army was mainly controlled by mercenaries and the mercenaries came from all over the world, mercenaries from New Zealand, Australia and South America. They were mercenaries proper, mad for a fight, to fight was their lifestyle, you know. We found that they were great, they were white number one. When I went into Luena and took it over, there were Congolese army just on the edge of town and there was a Belgian in charge of it. Jack -- can’t remember his name now, Jack something. But the first night that I was there, I went over into his camp, I rang him up first on the phone, on the army line and I said who I was and that we were here to do a job to stop killing and he said ‘that’s my policy too, in taking this place we killed only a half dozen in the place’. So I went over into his camp, sitting at the table and I said for a start off ‘I have no gun on me, no gun on me, have you?’, ‘I always carry a gun’ he says, you know. I said ‘I wouldn’t like to talk to you with the gun there’, so he took the gun and he said here you have it he says, so that changed that, it went pleasantly then, we had comfort there but if any bit of trouble started I went to him or he went to me.
S H: He was a Belgian was he?
G G: A Congolese born Belgian, he was a gentleman, only a gentleman. No bother getting on with him, as I said they cleared that area now of the local Congolese tribe and kept the killing down to the minimum anyway. That was the rule.
0.00.00 - 0.09.30 |
On Mary’s childhood. Her birth in West Cork and her family. On how the threshing of corn in particular was a big social occasion. Mary spent her early years in Kilmichael before moving to Cork city with her sisters, who owned a number of pubs.
Mary was born in Kilmichael on the 18th of March 1922. Her family were farmers. There were eight children. Five girls and three boys. Mary was the third girl. Her mother’s maiden name was Mary Hurley and she was from the same area. Her fathers name was Patrick Murphy. She describes her childhood as very happy. They lived at a crossroads and kept a very open house. Every night people came to play cards. Mary’s mother played the concertina. There was no electricity in the house and no running water, only a well down the road. Despite this, Mary says they were very happy for a long time. The first bad thing Mary remembers is the Economic War. They couldn’t sell their cattle and money became scarce. Mary always had an interest in the farm and worked on it until she got married. They had a lot of land, a hundred and something acres. A lot of it was rough land.
The threshing of corn every year was a big event. Usually there would be dancing and singing in the house afterwards. In the summer the men would cut turf from the bogs. Mary remembers bringing tea and sandwiches to them. Two of the turf cutter’s dogs started fighting and their owners nearly came to blows over the dogs.
Two of her older sisters worked in a local shop. Another sister worked in Bandon with an aunt who owned a shop and a pub. Later they all came to live in the city and opened pubs themselves. The Gables in Douglas was one of the pubs. The Phoenix was another one. A third sister had a pub on the quays called the Green Bow. That was sold and her sister bought a shop on the Western Road, opposite Jury’s Hotel. Mary worked in the Gables for a bit before her mother died. Back then you could put up a notice saying ‘No Ladies Served’ but you can’t do that nowadays. One of her brothers stayed home on the farm. Another brother worked in the County Hall but then left for Dublin to lecture in the college. He’s only dead with a year.
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0.09.51 - 0.13.33 |
Mary talks about the Economic War and how that made it difficult for her own family to sell their cattle. Despite the Economic War, her father was still a supporter of Fianna Fail, while most of the other nearby farmers supported Fine Gael. She talks about how WWII meant better prices for farmers.
Mary’s son Pat entered and after some introductions, Mary continued to talk more about the Economic War. Most of the farmers, especially the big farmers, were very opposed to Fianna Fail. Mary’s describes her father as a rabid Republican. Only a few of the other nearby farmers would have supported Fianna Fail. The local priests were going mad over Fianna Fail and comparing them to Bolsheviks. One of the priests, Canon Goold, used to ride around on a horse and often argued with Mary’s father over his support for Fianna Fail. Despite DeValera being responsible for the Economic War, Mary’s father still blamed England for the tariffs on cattle. Mary remembers being down in Ballineen selling cattle with her brother. Mary’s father had two heifers for sale but had trouble selling them. Mary was terrified of going home to her mother without money. The heifers ran off and Mary got them back, eventually being able to sell them for £6 each. In 1939 when the tariffs were removed, prices on cattle went up again. Mary remembers her father later selling two heifers to a buyer at home for £40. After that life became comfortable again. 1933 to 1939 were hard years according to Mary.
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0.13.33 - 0.17.37 |
Mary talks more about her parents and how they survived the flu epidemic of 1918. The beginnings of the War of Independence and the use of safehouses in the area by the IRA. On some of the local men who were arrested on suspicion of IRA membership.
During the First World War and just after, farmers got great prices for everything. Mary’s parents married in February 1918 and were able to live comfortably because the war meant they were able to sell anything. Mary’s parents both contracted the Spanish Flu while her mother was expecting her first child in 1918. The child had been due in February but arrived early in December. Because the flu was so contagious, people were terrified to enter the house to help. Both Mary’s parents survived. The two brothers renting the farm next door died from the flu. A local doctor told Mary that anyone who contracted the flu didn’t live to be old because it damaged their hearts. Straight after that, the trouble started according to Mary. A nearby house was used as a safe house by Republicans. Mary remembers her mother telling her how the Republicans would bring in straw and spread it all over the floor in the upper room. One night ten men slept there. Scouts stood by the windows and would tap with their guns if they saw anything. Mary’s son Pat points out a photo of a group of IRA suspects in Dunmanway Workhouse. Mary knew one of the men in the photo, Tim Buckley, who went to live in the United States. The other men in the photo were Richard Donovan, William Bohane and Jim Donovan. Tim Buckley married in the United States but his wife died from tuberculosis. They had one child.
Tim came back to live in Ireland with his child because they couldn’t afford to live in the United States. He used to work on Mary’s farm sometimes. The day Tim Buckley was arrested he was carrying turf across the bog. The police had local information that he was helping the IRA but he wouldn’t have been very active in the IRA. They took him and others to the barracks in Cappeen. The Donovan’s weren’t with them because they weren’t local. William Bohane had no connection to the IRA but any young man found at home was suspected of being in the IRA. There was another young man who was a shoemaker, arrested at home in bed after being drunk. The Tans began questioning Tim Buckley and one of them hit him with his rifle in the mouth, knocking out his front teeth.
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0.17.50 - 0.20.25 |
On Mary’s paternal grandmother and their connections to Republicanism. How one of her cousins was almost caught by the Black and Tans and how some help from a local shopkeeper and the quick thinking of Mary’s mother saved them.
Mary’s paternal grandmother was from beyond Macroom and there might have been a Fenian tradition on that side of the family but not from her grandfather’s side. Her grandmother’s maiden name was also Murphy. Her neighbours fought against the Black and Tans near Macroom. Mary’s first cousin on her father’s side, Jim Murphy and another man named Charlie Brown came into Cappeen in a horse and trap with revolvers in their pockets and drove into a place full of Black and Tans. Even though the two men nearly died of fright they had to keep going. They tied up the horse and pretended to be going shopping. The shopkeeper saved their lives. Mary describes the shopkeeper as being well in with the Tans. Because of the shopkeeper, the Tans never searched the two men and let them go.
They drove back up to Mary’s house and were met by Mary’s mother, who warned them that the Tans had just gone up the road. That was where they arrested Timmy Buckley. When Jim Murphy and Charlie Brown heard about the Tans, they tied the horse up and Mary’s mother put on her jacket, pretending she was going somewhere with the horse. The two men ran off down the fields. The Tans never came down as far as the house but instead went back the way they originally came because they had arrested Tim Buckley and the other men. They kept Timmy Buckley and the Donovan man for a week but let William Bohane go home. They must have had local information that William Bohane wasn’t in the IRA. They knew who was in it and who wasn’t.
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0.20.26 - 0.25.33 |
More on the War of Independence and the Civil War. Living not far from Kilmichael when the ambush took place. How a local man was suspected by the IRA of informing against them but later released thanks to information supplied by a local postmaster. On how fear of the IRA made people give them shelter. Mary’s grandmother gave shelter to the IRA but also had a daughter married to a member of the RIC.
According to Mary, her parent’s house was never raided by the Tans. But it did get raided by the Free State soldiers during the Civil War. Her father had guns hidden under the hay and got a fright. There was a heavy shower and the Free State soldiers took shelter with the hay. They were sitting on top of the guns but never realised. The reason the Tans never raided the house was because they didn’t like going down the narrow roads if they could avoid it. It was too dangerous for them. The house was only a few miles away from where the Kilmichael ambush took place and Mary’s father heard the guns going off. There was an old notebook found on one of the Tans and Mary bought it off the Southern Star. She still has it in the house somewhere. After the Truce, when the British troops were evacuating Dunmanway, an Irishman took a diary out of a Tan’s pocket. The notebook contained information about the local IRA. Where they slept at night, how many guns they carried and descriptions of them. One man was arrested by the IRA on suspicion of being an informant and kept him for three days. His mother was searching the area, worried the IRA had shot him. A cousin of Mary’s father saved his life. He worked at the post office in Cappeen and knew who was really informing because he read the letters going to the Tans. Most of those letters were confiscated by the postmen. Mary thinks it was a woman who was informing.
While most people in the local area weren’t Republicans, they still wouldn’t inform on them. Mary’s very near neighbours were more interested in making money and putting it into big farms. But there were some nearby who were very pro-IRA. People had no choice but to keep the IRA if they came because they would be afraid of them as well. Mary’s grandmothers house was further up into the hills and was also used as a safehouse by the IRA. One of her daughters was married to an RIC man in Dublin. But he had died before the War of Independence and she was living at home. One time, her husband’s brother, who was also in the Dublin Metropolitan Police, wrote to her asking could he visit for a holiday. He was fed up in Dublin and wanted to get away for a bit. Her grandmother wrote back to say he was welcome but he might have to share the house with people he wouldn’t agree with. He sat in the parlour with his hat on the table and a revolver under it, while IRA men ate in the kitchen. He didn’t say anything. Many of the RIC were sympathetic but still had to do their jobs. A lot of them didn’t want the Tans around either.
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0.25.35 - 0.28.44 |
On hearing stories about the War of Independence when she was young and trying to get relatives to talk about it. On a man who used to come into her sisters pub who told her about his involvement in killing three British soldiers.
Mary remembers hearing these stories when she was young. When Timmy Buckley came back from America, he was always telling stories. Mary’s cousin, who was involved in ambushes during the War of Independence, never spoke about it. Mary tried to get him to talk about it. He was arrested during the Civil War and sent to Cork Gaol. He was among those who broke out of the prison. Mary thinks those who were very involved with the fighting didn’t want to talk about it. She thinks they hated what they had to do. Jim Murphy was involved in an attack on the Kilmurray barracks but they didn’t succeed. The barracks was burned down later. There was another man who used to come into her sisters pub and he was also very involved in the War of Independence. She thinks he shot a lot of people. One day, Mary was alone with him and kept asking him to talk about it. He told her about the Tans killing some people at a match in Glanmire and how the IRA were told to kill a British soldier for each person killed by the Tans. He described the three soldiers that they shot. They took the soldiers out to Blarney and shot them there. Mary thinks it had an awful effect on the man. He talked to himself a lot and was a bit daft from it. Mary thinks Ireland would have been worse off under England because we would have been bombed during WWII.
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0.28.45 - 0.37.47 |
Mary talks about going to school until she was 15 and the stories she would have heard at home. She recalls the local tailor and how the children would play with the empty reels. Mary’s father was a big believer in hospitality and often welcomed tinkers to stay in exchange for them making household items. Tramps were also invited to stay, although Mary’s mother didn’t approve. Some of these were WW1 veterans dealing with shellshock. There was a story about a farmer down in Kerry who murdered his wife and tried to cover it up.
Mary attended school until the age of 15. There wasn’t much talk about the War of Independence period in school. One teacher might have talked about it. Mary would have been hearing the stories at home around the fire and she considers her home to have been a ‘rambling house’. John Hennessy, the shoemaker, along with a tailor, another shoemaker, a carpenter and a harness maker would all come to visit. The harness maker would come every few years to do the harness and would spend the day stitching up different things. They would take their shoes over to be repaired and getting new soles put on them. The tailor would make her fathers suit. The tailor has his own house up the road. The table took up the entire kitchen and there were big reels of thread on it. He kept all the empty reels for the children and they would put twine through them to make horses. Tinkers used to come and stay during the summer. Mary’s father would never refuse anyone. They would bring straw down from the haggart and put it into the trap. A big family would sleep in it for a week. The Tinkers would make tins, cups, jugs and milk containers to sell around. Mary thinks they had a place in Dunmanway. Around twenty years ago, Mary’s brother was at home one day. A big heavy woman came into the door. She wanted to show her son, who was home from England, where they used to spend their summer holidays. The house she used to stay in was gone. It was on the side of the road and had been knocked. It had been a big, long open shed.
Mary’s father would never refuse anyone and he kept a lot of tramps. He didn’t like to see anyone else without a bed. These people would never come into the house, except the girls at night. Mary’s mother didn’t like them playing with the girls but her father encouraged it. Mary’s father felt you should be as nice to the tramp as you would be to the Bishop. Everyone should be treated equally. He wasn’t afraid of anyone. A man came one night, just after WW1, and a lot of them were suffering from shell shock. Mary’s mother refused to allow him to sleep in the house. They set up a mattress for him in the barn. He had a box of matches in his pocket and he spent the night cracking matches. The floor was covered in burnt matches. There was thunder and lightning during the night. Mary’s mother woke up and seeing the lightning, thought the man had set fire to the barn. She looked out and could hear him singing at the top of his voice at the thunder and lightning. Mary’s mother went off to mass the next morning, leaving her father and the young children at home with the man. He sang for them. Mary recites the words of the song.
Mary’s father took an interest in everyone and they would all tell him their stories. Mary’s not sure if it’s fair to repeat some of the stories, in case these people have descendants in the area. Mary tells a story about a murder down in Kerry involving a very wealthy farmer. It was rare to hear about a murder in the paper back then. This farmer murdered his wife and tried to pretend that she died attempting to rescue a turkey from the well. But he was charged with the murder. A tramp came to Mary’s house and it was his aunt who was the murder victim. The tramp’s father was another wealthy farmer but the he left home because his father beat him when he was 16. He went down to a nearby town and enlisted in the British army. He described the Battle of the Somme. He began to smoke opium as a way of coping with the horrors of war and became addicted. When he was discharged he was offered either a pension or a lump sum. He took the lump sum and spent it all on drugs. That’s how he ended up going from door to door. Mary’s father would sometimes offer to give the tramp a shilling but he refused to take it. Mary doesn’t know what happened to the tramps. One tramp nearly died at their house but the ambulance came and took him away. They brought him to Clonakilty where he died there. Many of the tramps were very neglected. A lot of people would feed them. Some of the tramps would demand food. One of them was an ex-teacher who had fallen on hard times. |
0.37.52 - 0.39.07 |
On reading a book about Brendan Behan by Ulrick O Connor
Mary was reading a book about Brendan Behan written by Ulrick O Connor. According to the book, Brendan Behan saved the farmer who murdered his wife from the gallows. He was to be hanged but Brendan Behan drove him mad. Behan used to torment the man in the exercise yard of the prison. One day the man got so mad that he had an epileptic fit. He was taken away in an ambulance and sent to hospital. |
0.39.14 - 0.42.33 |
Despite Republican connections in the family, there was no involvement with Cumann na mBan. On some aunts who were married to men in the Dublin Metropolitan Police. On how one of Mary’s aunts helped an IRA member get out of police custody by pretending he was her brother. She had to leave Cork afterwards and return home to West Cork until the Troubles ended. None of Mary’s family was involved in Cumann na mBan. One of her aunts was married to a member of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. Another aunt was also married to another DMP member but he left it because his family’s shop was being boycotted. If he didn’t quit the police the shop wouldn’t survive. Her aunt Peggy married in Cork at the same time as her mother. One of Mary’s uncles went to live in America and Mary’s mother was delighted with this. One day, Mary’s aunt was visiting other cousins who were also in the IRA and met with Charlie Brown. She thought he was the image of her brother Willie, who was in America. A few weeks later, Charlie was arrested and he gave Willie’s name and address, claiming that he was Willie and was working in Fords in Cork. He was brought to the barracks in Cork. Mary’s aunt was married in Cork at the time. She was a very small woman, only 5’1 or 5’2 and expecting her second baby. She got word from the IRA to go to the barracks and identify her brother. Charlie Brown wrote a book about it afterwards and mentioned how this brave little woman came to get him out and saved his life. Speaking to Mary about it years later, her aunt said she was a terrified little woman. She was as terrified of refusing the IRA as she was of doing it. They were very nice to her in the barracks and promised not to do any harm to her. They allowed her to talk to her ‘brother’. The ruse worked and Charlie Brown was released. He was supposed to report to the barracks every week but he didn’t. Mary’s aunt had to flee Cork city as a result. Her baby was born at Mary’s house. She stayed there until the Troubles ended. The Truce was signed not long afterwards. She was lucky because the police could have found out who she was. Charlie Brown was very involved with the IRA in Macroom. |
0.42.39 - 0.43.42 |
On moving up to Cork city when she was 24, working in her sister’s pub and helping out on the farm at home.
Mary moved to Cork city when she was 24. Her sister had opened a pub on Douglas Street. Mary was there for about a year, coming in and out. She went home again when her mother died. She helped out on the farm with the hens, duck, geese and turkeys. This was in the late 1940s. Her mother died in 1948. Her father had died in 1944. Mary’s eldest brother took over the farm. |
0.43.47 - 0.46.30 |
Encounters with the Blueshirts in the 1930s. Going to watch Platform Dances in Glan on a Sunday. There was an agreement between Republicans and Blueshirts that no political symbols would be worn, but the Blueshirts broke the agreement. This led to a fight and the end of Platform Dances in the area.
Mary remembers the Blueshirts from when she was 14 or 15. Mary wasn’t allowed to go dancing but they were allowed to go looking at people dancing at the platforms. There were dances in different places on a Sunday afternoon and someone playing music. Nuala and Mary were allowed go back to Glan to see the dancing but weren’t supposed to do any dancing themselves. They went down on a Sunday. At the time there was a lot of animosity between different groups, Republicans and Blueshirts. They had an agreement that no political signs of any description were to be worn, like badges or blue shirts. It was a place for dancing and fun and not for politics. The following Sunday, they went down again and there was one girl there with a Blueshirt. Later, Mary saw 20 men wearing blueshirts and black ties coming down the road on bicycles. It was all arranged that the girl would be there and one of the Blueshirts started dancing with her. The minute they started dancing the music stopped and they started arguing about the no politics agreement. The next thing they were all beating each other. Nuala and Mary ran away home. While walking up the road, they met a girl who took a wrench from her bicycle repair kit and went down to join in the fight. One fella was carried away in a stretcher afterwards. That was the end of the platform dancing. Mary was too young to be allowed dance as she was only 14. Once they got older they were allowed dance. |
0.46.32 - 0.50.10 |
On whether the War of Independence was worth it and getting the Treaty Ports back. On Irish not being spoken widely when she was young. An Irish poem her father used to recite. Two of her nieces became teachers. May remembered learning about the Famine when she was in school and an elderly neighbour who had lived through it.
Mary thinks Irish independence was hard won but the best thing was when Ireland got the Treaty Ports back. Otherwise, Ireland would have been bombed during the war. She believes if Ireland had still been under English rule Germany would definitely have dropped a few bombs on us. The Irish language would definitely have been gone, although Mary doesn’t know if that would be a good or bad thing. She doubts the English would have allowed it to be so prominent. Mary didn’t have Irish when she was young, although her father had some. They weren’t allowed teach it in schools. Her father spent months trying to learn it. He had one little poem out of a schoolbook he liked to recite. The tailor living nearby was from Ballyvourney and a native Irish speaker. Mary says they didn’t appreciate the language. If the children were making noise they would be scolded in Irish. Mary picked up some Irish over the years, especially when she was in school. Two of her nieces are teachers. They attended boarding school in Fermoy.
Prompted by her son, Mary mentions learning about the Famine while at school. One of her neighbours, Mrs Barrett was in her 80s and remembered the Famine. But she didn’t want to talk about it out of pride. Mary realised she had put her foot in it. Mrs Barrett remembered people who didn’t have food and being slapped by her mother for giving bread to those on their way to the workhouse in Dunmanway. Before the Famine there were eight houses up past Cappeen and most of them were gone after the Famine. Only the farmers survived and a lot of the cottier people died. |
0.050.11 - 0.55.35 |
Talking about some of the poetry she wrote herself but not wanting to read it out for the recording. On adjusting to moving from the countryside into the city. On being driven up to Cork in a lorry and her first impressions of Douglas Street. No cars on the street at the time, just donkeys and ponies. The vegetable dealers who used to sell on the street. Discussing her nephew, Liam Ó Muirthile. On opening up a shop on Tramore Road and eventually deciding to move to Glasheen. On attempting to sell their shop a few times.
Mary writes poetry herself but isn’t comfortable reading it out for the recording but offers to read it out after the interview. Mary moved to the city and met her future husband, Tom. She also had a boyfriend in the country at the time. When she first started in the Gables, Mary missed the freedom of being able to walk out and run down the field. She was fascinated by all the people walking along. At night she would sit at the window looking at all the people walking along. She eventually came to like living in the city.
Her very first day on Douglas Street, she came up in a lorry from Cappeen. The owner of the lorry drove her all the way up to the door. Douglas Street was covered in donkeys and small ponies. There were no cars to be seen. There were tables for vegetable dealers up at the top from the Market Gardens. They would come into the pub for a drink in the morning after selling their goods. It was a very busy pub in those days. The Gables was always a good sized pub. It was home to her sister and most of her children. One of her sister’s sons is the poet Liam Ó Muirthile. Mary has an article about him that was in the Examiner. He lives out in Douglas now.
When she married, Mary and her husband opened a shop on Tramore Road, off Togher Road. She was worn out from working in the shop and looking after young children. Mary’s brother lived nearby in Glasheen. Where the houses are now there were still fields. One night Mary was playing cards with her brother, who was living in Glasheen at the time and they were building houses in the nearby field. Mary said to her husband they would give up the shop and buy one of the houses. Mary couldn’t do it any longer. They put the shop up for sale. The man who bought the shop came and spent a day working behind the counter with them. He gave out sweets to all the children and told them he would be the new shopkeeper. The next day he rang Mary and told her he had decided not to bother. At the time there was a woman who used to help in the shop and she offered to rent it from them. They rented the shop to her and came to live in Glasheen. Later, the lady renting the shop wanted to give it up because her daughter got married. Mary and her husband took back the shop and still have it. |
0.55.50 - 1.01.47 |
On being asked about Tom Barry and his connections to Kilmichael. Although Mary never remembers Tom Barry ever being in their house, his wife Leslie Price did have tea with them once. On large scale emigration due to lack of work. All of Mary’s uncles emigrated. One was a Christian Brother in New Zealand and the others went to America. One of her uncles was a bus driver in New York for a few years but after getting in an accident he moved to Boston. He died young because of the flu. More of how Mary’s parents contracted the Spanish Flu in 1918 and almost died. Her sister being born premature and how her grandmother and aunt marched down to the priest to get her baptised. On the custom of ‘Churching’.
Being from Kilmichael, Mary has a few stories about Tom Barry. Tom Barry married Leslie Price and she had tea in Mary’s house. Mary’s mother was told to make a special tea because there was a very important person coming, Ms Price. Mary’s mother was a bit dicey about the IRA because she came from a different kind of a crowd. Mary’s mother claimed Ms Price didn’t thank her very much. Mary’s mother didn’t think much of her. Mary doesn’t think Tom Barry ever came into their house. Mary’s mother was from Kilmichael parish as well, only up the road from where they lived. Mary’s grandmother came from beyond Macroom. They were the ones with the IRA connections. The farm is still there but Mary’s family sold it. They called there one time and the farmer was clearing out a sand pit. He knocked out a big lot of ammunition. His two brothers went to America. They all had to emigrate then. There was no work in Ireland, even on the roads. The new Irish government favoured their own and Fianna Fail were the same.
Emigration had a big part to play in Mary’s family. All her uncles went away. One uncle, Jim, was a Christian Brother, he ended up in New Zealand for 40 years. He came back to Ireland and died in Dublin, in the O’Brien institute. He was at Mary’s brothers wedding. He died suddenly from heart failure. The other two uncles went to America and they have families still there, Mary’s cousins. One lot of them came to visit Ireland once. One of the uncles came back to die in Ireland but he was a bit gone in the brain. Mary had a neighbour who visited them in America. They were living in Boston. Mary’s uncle Willie was in New York first, working as a bus driver. He had an accident with the bus. Mary found out about it from a neighbour. He was in America illegally and had to go away to avoid being found out. He travelled down to Boston. He married an Irish girl and had a family in Boston. He lived there all his life but died very young. He died from the flu and had it even worse than Mary’s parents.
Mary’s older sister was born prematurely, when her parents were suffering from the flu and the weather was terrible. Mary’s grandmother and aunt were the only ones who would go into the house. They still took the baby down to be christened in case she died. She lived to be 83. She was the sister who owned the Gables Pub. Mary has a number of stories about her grandmother. She was a very tall woman, nearly 6ft. The rest of the family were small but her grandmother’s people were very tall. A number of them had been in the RIC. According to Mary, very few Catholics were accepted in the RIC, but they were so tall an exception was made. When her grandmother went down to the priests house to get Mary’s sister baptised, his housekeeper answered the door and told them they had to wait because the priest was having his dinner. Mary’s grandmother elbowed the housekeeper out of the way and marched into the room and told the priest to baptise the child. There were other traditions at the time such as Churching. Mary did it herself but it’s not done anymore. |
1.01.47 - 1.03.31 |
Remembering some Halloween traditions when she was young and hearing ghost stories from some of the old men in the area. Mary and her sister weren’t allowed listen to the stories but would try to sneak back in to hear them. She learned other poems from some of her neighbours.
Mary says they didn’t have many Halloween traditions when they were very young. That didn’t happen until they were older and started going to school. It wasn’t even mentioned much. They would have had old men telling ghost stories. Of all the locals, John Tom told the scariest stories. Mary and her sister would be terrified going to bed after listening to his stories about all the dead people. Mary’s mother tried to put the children out when she saw him coming. She had a horror of any sort of nasty talk. Mary would try to sneak back in to hear his stories. The Buckleys were the same. They would teach Mary old poems that weren’t very nice. Mary had a talent for picking things up. She promises to read out some of her own poems after the interview.
End of interview. |
Sample of Transcript:
C F: Did you have your children at home Mary?
M O D: I had mine at home.
C F: All of them
M O D: All of them, yes.
C F: And did you have the help of the local lady?
M O D: Pardon?
C F: Did you have the help of a local woman? --
M O D: I had?
C F: For bringing them into this world? Who would she of been?
M O D: Well, if there is a girl here in the room here next to us, Annie Murphy, her mother was a midwife for three or four of my children. The last of mine, and the one’s previous to that there. Of course she’d be a Mrs [long pause] I can’t remember you know, but they were like, oh I can’t remember her name now. But Mrs. Murphy anyway was at three or four of my last children, she lived over there on St. Mary’s rd. And her daughters a patient here at the moment. Annie Murphy I don’t know if she is here yet or not.
C F: Oh I think I know who you are talking about. I do.
M O D: Yeah.
C F: I do, I think I do, is she from St. Brendan’s road?
M O D: No, no, no, the house that Mary, Annie Murphy, was born and reared in and she is a patient here so now you can imagine.
C F: Ok Mary.
M O D: And she is the last of her family there all of them, all of them dead, but Anne is, and she still alive. But you know the way at the moment, she’s a patient at the moment here –
C F: Oh I see ok.
M O D: And her name is Anne Murphy
C F: Alright Mary. And can you remember, can you tell me some things about the Black and Tans, what they did?
M O D: Oh don’t be talking girl, they done terrible things, first of all you know they shot Tomás Mac Curtain.
C F: Right.
M O D: You know that don’t you.
C F: I do.
M O D: Yeah, I was working with him at the time, and the first, that night, he wouldn’t stop, selling [phrase unintelligible], himself inside the counter and I was, twas like, in the month of March you know and I was going out and it was wet and dull and it was misty. And I was going out, and the factory was at the back of that shop, that I told you. And I was going out, I was finishing off an order or something myself and I was going out and this man was singing outside the shop door. Ballad singing, it was around that time you know now. And I was going out the door and Tomás, the Lord have mercy on him now. He called me back and he said give that to the poor fella singing outside the door. I dunno was it a six millimetre[??] or a schilling he gave me now. He gave me something to hand to the poor singer outside the door. And I said you know now. And he was singing ‘Wrap the Green Flag Around Me Boys’, that’s the song he was singing.
C F: Right.
M O D: He was singing that song but I handed him that anyway outside the door, it was quiet a coincidence wasn’t it? --
C F: Back in the day --
M O D: It was only that night, that he was murdered. The Black and [Tans], his wife was expecting, a baby, sure they had twins after, the same night, [phrase unintelligible] they shot her [means him] dead, they shot him dead. On the 17th around then, I dunno the exact date now, in the month of March.