Patrick Cooney: Stonemasons,
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They brought their history with them- an oral history. They talked about Cork occasionally. One side of his family were masons- so it was easier to go back as they passed the trades down the generations.
In this interview Pat talks alot about his own family history. He later outlines what building works his family were involved in. Like that of, St Coleman's cathedral (Cobh), Galtee Castle (Tipperary) [demolished 1942] and the list goes on around Cork. Portumna Castle (Galway), Birr Castle (Offaly).
Pat then moves on to describe the experience of being Irish in London. He also mentions the similarities between the inhabitants of Cork and London.
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CFP_SR00565_osullivan_2015; CFP_SR00566_fahy_2015; CFP_SR00569_fahy_2016; CFP_SR00570_steele_2016; CFP_SR00574_jones_2016; CFP_SR00577_fahy_2016; CFP_SR00581_osullivan_2016; CFP_SR00583_johnson_2016; CFP_SR00589_lysaght_2016; CFP_SR00590_varian_2016; CFP_SR00595_Jones_2016; CFP_SR00610_McCarthy_2017; CFP_SR00611_Buckley_2017:
Published material related to the collection:
Moore, Michael (2016) ‘A Tale of Two Masons’, The Archive Journal, Vol 20: 8-10.
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Time Summary
0.00.00 - 0.07.10 |
London-Irish identity, the Hogan name and link, researching their family tree, meeting their lineage Pat grew up in London, his family left Cork in the 1880s They brought their history with them- an oral history They talked about Cork occasionally. One side of his family were masons- so it was easier to go back as they passed the trades down the generations His great, great grandfather was Jeremiah Hogan- a great Cork name- there was mention of Spike Island, he was one of 22 children- which shocked Pat Pat’s mother was a keen amateur genealogist Pat’s father is from Co Meath Pat went on holidays in Ireland as a kid every summer “so, we had this kind of wonderful schizophrenic duality, so we’d come home to Ireland”- England was Babylon They went to Dublin, the link with Cork had been lost- Pat’s mother had a yearning to find out about her side of the family- Hogan is a Tipperary name They were brought to Cork as teenagers as his mother did her research in the local libraries- they were Hogan’s and masons At that time, there was a local historian living out in Cobh, his name was Liam Hogan, a stonemason- the librarian told them this. Pat remembers going up to a house in Cobh with his mother Eileen Devaney [phonetic sounding] to look for Liam O’Hogan. This man came out and he looked very dramatic, very rugged. Pat’s mother got emotional when she saw him “she knew she was in the right house” as he looked like her grandfather, “like meeting a ghost” And she told him what she knew- he was a great writer and contributor to the Journal of the Cork historical and archaeological society JCAHS, he is dead since. He was the right man, he knew his history- he had heard of the Hogan’s who went to London, “We don’t know what happened to them” So, they had found the connection. He was able to sit down and tell her what he knew (6m09s) Since then, they have done a lot of research and they found out the Hogan’s have been stonemasons as far back as 1619, up to today, there is still a Hogan mason in Midleton [Cork] The idea that stonemasonry is just another trade is wrong. They are itinerant masons- they travel around The Hogan name is from Tipperary, Limerick and Clare- they came down to Cork in the mid-eighteenth century because there was a huge building boom. They followed the work. |
0.07.11 - 0.11.21 |
Father Edmond Hogan, the Jesuit Archive, finding the family tree Liam Hogan told them about Father Edmond’s papers- he is a relative of theirs, he was a great historian in the 19th century He taught James Joyce, he taught Douglas Hyde Irish. Pat did not know of him. All of father Edmond Hogan’s brothers got together and took mortgages out so Edmond could train as a priest- he was bright- he became a very noted scholar who wrote countless books- he was a key figure in the revival of the Irish wolfhound. He wrote books on Ireland in the 16th century, he was a quasi-genius, he was great friends with Eoin McNeill. He was part of the language revival in the 1880s. They found out all his papers were in the Jesuit archive in Dublin- they were allowed have a look at them but there was no order on them and there was a room full of them. “literally walls of filing boxes” This was in the 1990s, since then they have been put into order They spent 3 days there- they found cigarette packets with notes on them- he was an inveterate note taker and historian His famous book is called ‘Onomasticon Goedelicum’ [Latin phrase, 9m00s a history of all the place names in Irish] He did research that is still been used Pat and his mother were looking for stuff on the family tree- Pat was getting bored- finally on the last box at the bottom was his hand-written account of the family tree- [nice quote- 10m] And it was all there- they were masons going way back- they came down from Tipperary One of them built Ballyedmond House in Midleton They would work on the house- become stewards and stay there The mason’s sons would then move on to another place So, there were Hogan’s all over East Cork and they were all masons They built up a picture bit by bit When Pat looks at a book, he goes to the back to see if there is any Hogan’s in it- if yes they are his (lineage) |
0.11.22 - 0.14.47 |
What his ancestors built, speaking to masons, understanding life as a mason historicially, Eddie Buckley a mason, Clongowes and father Edmond Hogan Pat is not a mason he grew up in London Pat does not think he would be up to it but he has 400 hundred years of ancestry that helped build St Colemans cathedral (Cobh), the stores in Kinsale, Mitchelstown College, Galtee Castle (Tipperary) [demolished 1942] and the list goes on around Cork. Portumna Castle (Galway), Birr Castle (Offaly) It is wonderful to read about it but you have to speak to masons today to realise that masonry was a hard, hard job- there was no romance or glamour- you were building a castle, but by god you worked hard for your money Pat rediscovered this connection with his family and found that some of them were still masons but not working in the way that their ancestors had. Eddie Buckley a cousin of Pat’s was able to tell him about been a stonemason and how hard it was and he said it’s no surprise that a lot of masons took to the drink- one the incessant hard work and also the stone dust Stone carving was probably a bit easier and more creative In those days, there was no health and safety- not an easy job and you’re lugging stone and exposed to the elements It was easy to see why established masons tried to get their sons to college Father Edmond Hogan went to Clongowes in the 1830s since then nearly all of the Hogan’s from that branch of the family have gone to Clongowes So, the masonry has nearly died out in Pat’s family One guy left in Midleton Pat believes that because some of the older masons did not get the money or respect they deserved they don’t value the importance of it So, when younger people talk about the art and craft of masonry they look at you really strange- “if you were out on scaffolding 8 hours a day you wouldn’t be romantic about it” |
0.14.48 - 0.19.27 |
Stucadoors, Charles Fort, Kinsale, research, tribalism and identity in London, proud of his heritage, the migrant experience Pat’s father was a decorative plasterer- he could do cornices, centre pieces he trained as what was called a stucadoor [plastering technique developed in ancient Greece] He had no great love for it because he didn’t get well paid and wasn’t appreciated for it Pat gets a great buzz from going around Cork looking at buildings that his family helped build If you work in an office you don’t leave much behind but Pat can go to Charles Fort in Kinsale and look at the stores and his great, great, great, great, great grandfather designed and built them They were the main trunk of the family They have hooked up and become friends and helped each other with research Pat’s mother was like a dog with a bone because “the Irish who go away hold on to it” When you go to the maelstrom of London you have to identify yourself very quickly- it’s tribal- (nice quote-16m32s) Pat grew up in the East End of London and there were lots of immigrants- Italians, Polish. German, West Indian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistanis- all living in very small geographical area They had their own identities, cultures- sometimes they clashed, but not a lot They were different to the Irish in America who developed a rose-tinted view of home- they were able to come home every year- pat knew the realities of Ireland in the 1970s and 80s Pat knew it was different to England and he had a primal urge to be in Ireland- now he lives here He has gradually made his way down to Cork It is silly to be proud of your family tree because there are all dead, it is you that’s important because you are still alive “you can’t trade off of dead men’s triumphs” 18m09s It’s a pleasure to look at their work but also to realise that Pat didn’t have to do it Patrick felt that it was schizophrenic growing up Irish in London- he would be called Irish because of his name, Patrick Cooney He grew up with a dual identity There were more pluses, than problems |
0.19.28 - 0.22.52 |
The Cork Steam Packets, how the Irish settled in London, Irish names and culture in London, the Irish stays with you, and his love for Cork, They found that the Cork steam packets [British Ferry Company] went out of Penrose Quay and they landed in Wapping just below tower bridge in the port of London and the Irish jumped off the ship on both sides of the Thames and settled and slowly moved inland After WWII and the blitz, the Irish settled in Essex [London], you will find a lot of Cork descendants there The Cork steam packet was the ship that most people took from Munster if they wanted to go to England All the names from the school roll when pat was young were Munster names- it was a virtual cork Pat lives in Dublin for years, but never felt at home there Cork people remind him of home- slightly garrulous, slightly confrontational, can’t stop talking, The people Pat grew up with in London were sometimes four or five generations away from Munster but it was there Pat found himself drifting back home Pat likes Cork, it has a lot of potential There is a great gra for the city- they are chippy about the city For a small place, there are attractive buildings All of these churches perched on hills, because of the marshes Pat’s mother used to come to Cork on the Inishfallen- she said coming to cork was extraordinary, like coming down into a field- cork was more continental than Dublin which was a bridges [phonetic sounding] city, in many respects Pat is getting to know more about his family He can go and touch buildings that his ancestors worked on and that pleases him |
0.22.53 - 0.27.02 |
The pull to come home, what his ancestors did, Spike Island ledgers, IRB, research in London National Archives, Jeremiah Hogan’s 21 siblings, large Irish families and high death rates Pat feels there might be a genetic impulse to come home His family came to Cork in 1690 which isn’t a long time in history But there is a pull absolutely The real Ireland is outside Dublin Pat does not have a need to go do masonry Pat is a creative person He does not think he would be up to it That generation were tough- they were wiry Pat’s family were employed by the board of ordinance to fortify Spike Island and they were employed by the British crown- Pat is a republican and wasn’t happy about this The other side of Pat’s family were all members of the IRB [Irish Republican Brotherhood] But if you have 21 kids to feed its understandable They never knew about Spike Island until they did research In London in the national archives- Pat found out that when the British left Ireland in 1922 they took everything with them- and Pat found the ledgers from the board of ordinance who looked after all the fortifications Pat found in the ledgers that his great, great, great grandfather lived in Spike Island with 2 young children He was there with a few other masons- onsite masons There were 2 kids born on the island On father Edmonds parchment, the family tree, they found all these weird notes- he put down Jeremiah Hogan and said he had 21 brothers and sisters- few lived beyond the age of 15, one went into the water and brought out a disease that killed 5 of them in a week- could be cholera Pat understands now why his great, great grannie was pregnant from 18 to 48 almost, they had to because of natural wastage From the family tree, Pat saw that a lot of the children would be dead by 4 and 5 (27m quote) Out of 21 kids, you might end up with 5 |
0.27.03 - 0.28.56 |
Irish history, the Hogan’s in East Cork, Fota Island, the Smith-Barry’s Pat’s family story is very similar to many, it’s the Irish story, you can follow it true Some go into the priesthood, some go into the British army 27m10s and if they had any land, the youngest one gets the land Pat learned about Irish history and Irish history is very traumatic and has repercussions through to today The Hogan’s were very well got with the Smith-Barry’s who were very well got in East Cork- Barryscourt Hospital They worked on Fota [Island in Cork Harbour] when it was been extended- it was a hunting lodge- some of his family lived on Fota in the Crescent [a part of Fota Island] and down by the jetty near Bellvelly It was a bit like ‘Downton abbey’ [TV series]- they got jobs on the estate building the estate walls and things like that- this went thru until the 1940s, there was still Hogan’s there Major Bell had it after the Smith-Barry’s They were there till the 50s Stonemasonry started to die out around that time then because buildings were engineered rather than built |
0.28.57 - 0.33.07 |
Preserving our heritage, contemporary buildings, bad architecture and planning, Italian attitudes culture What Jim Fahy is doing now is important- recording stuff The Irish are good at rescuing things- Irish music was on its last legs until people went around and recorded all the old people playing music- looking back these people were pioneers It’s the same with masonry- it’s an art it’s permanent- there will be a time when its cherished There are stone buildings 200 hundred years old Will some of the newer buildings be around in 50 years? Pat doesn’t think so “we build with a built-in obsolescence” Pat believes that Jim Fahy needs to go to the city council and demand that buildings need to have a certain amount of masonry in them “why do buildings today look like IKEA stores?” “why can’t we have classical stone buildings?” “in Ireland we have a problem with visual illiteracy” In Ireland things have to be in the brutalist style which Pat believes doesn’t work The Elysium building doesn’t work Classical, palladium, gothic, neo-gothic, arts and crafts buildings in cork, which work because the architect and builders were looking at how they were going to fit in to the streetscape or the landscape, whereas now with ego driven projects all they see is their building and that’s why they look ridiculous The courthouse on Washington street is still a really attractive building Pat spends a lot of time in Italy and they are surrounded by Renaissance buildings- they are proud and protect them Ireland is on the edge of things so- “we want to be seen to be up to date but its actually passé” Pat argues with architects, why can’t we have a modern classical building? They have no answer for it because they can’t do it- we need crafts people who can do it It’s important for stonemasons and stucadoors to keep the craft alive because it will come back |
0.33.08 - 0.37.17 |
Andrew Smith a modern stucadoor, small-scale planning, heritage, enjoying your craft, David shaw Smith and the television series ‘Hands’, Ken Thomson a stone carver in Ballycotton Pat’s friend is probably Irelands best stucadoor, he is an expert on 18th century plaster work- Andrew Smith- smith and Henderson- the finest stucadoor in Ireland Pat worked for him on a 18th century house in Henrietta street Dublin- Pat did it for a year and enjoyed it- It’s a duty to people today to at least record what was there How feasible are large scale buildings environmentally? Small scale mix of buildings more amenable to a good quality of life- more environmentally sound Pat has found that progress is always greed dressed up as progress Be sceptical of what is seen as modern- tomorrow modern is old fashioned Pat has no grá to be a mason- he respects it You have to love your job- if not, your life is incrementally damaged- and you end up working in the civil service- soulless Pat’s father loved talking about his job- crafts people do tend to enjoy their work more In Cork more books being written- more progress David Shaw-Smith did a great series in the 80s called ‘Hands’ 36m43s he went out and filmed all these people when nobody was interested- he filmed Ken Thomson a stone carver- he’s only recently retired, lives in Ballycotton An incredible series |
0.37.18 - 0.40.31 |
Irish emigrant identity, travelling Irish, effects of emigration on Ireland: brain drain Pat is very happy he was born the son of an Irish emigrant- it sharpened him- had to work out who he was A lot of 2nd, 3rd generation Irish very unsure of who they are [A woman walks into room and Pat speaks to her very briefly] Pat has travelled a lot and there are always Irish people in the most curious of places- the wandering Irish Ireland is poorly served by our government- the substitutes bench is on the field because of emigration- the best left With mass-emigration you lose your best Look around the world and you will see Irish names in the top positions in music, acting, science, engineering, politics- the descendants of Irish emigrants “Nobody has the courage to bring home the diaspora to sort out the mess of a country we’ve got” |
0.40.32 - 0.47.53 |
The Save Moore Street campaign, London battalion of IRB, the Easter Rising, a 15-year campaign, high court judge, Spitalfield London, have to fight for your culture Pat was angry that a historic part of Dublin was going to be flattened for a shopping centre Will they ever understand that they’ve got something special here, an almost intact 18th century city There was wholesale demolition during the 80s Moore street really touched Pat, because his family were republicans involved in the war of independence in the London battalion smuggling guns over to Ireland He thought it was sinful that such a historic spot where Pearse and Connolly evacuated from the GPO [General Post Office] was going to be levelled for a shopping centre- you couldn’t make it up The campaign lasted 15 years and we won, unlike most heritage campaigns in Ireland They lost Wood Quay, Glen of the Downs, lost the Corrib, lost Tara- Moore street most successful campaign We ended up in the high court in the centenary year with relatives of 1916 rising against the Irish government- you couldn’t make it up The media had no interest in us The judge saw it and made the right decision Moore street has a vibrant market People all over Ireland like open markets But planners like large scale things because they bring in rates and that’s all their interested in it It was “David versus Goliath” I knew we’d win because we would go to the end- chain ourselves to the buildings if we had too Pat was involved in a campaign in London to save Spitalfield market Pat always found in committee’s and campaigns there’d be irish people Pat believes the Irish inside Ireland are not great fighters, but outside they are It’s the emigrant experience They are now involved in the redesign of the Moore Street area in an appropriate manner Yesterday was the 1st anniversary of the judgement in the high court Ireland has a great country with heritage and culture, but at local and national level the government are an enemy- who see Ireland as their own personal resource to exploit Everybody can do something to help our country We had 700 years of domination and we still held on to our identity, music and culture. We can’t possibly sell it in the last 40 years to something as sad as global capitalism Identity is always changing and forming but coming back to Cork I can see more clearly where an awful lot of me comes from |
0.47.54 - 0.53.27 |
London battalion IRB, British army, smuggling guns from London to Ireland, the execution of Field Marshall Sir Henry Wilson by Reggie dunne and Joseph O’Sullivan, Michael Collins in London. The treaty and negotiations. The London Irish battalion in the GPO and refusing to surrender Pat is very proud of his republican roots- London battalion The Irish volunteers were founded in 1913- so many Irish in Britain that battalions were set up in cities- Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow and two in London Pat’s grandfather and two grand-uncles were members of the London battalion- 1913-1914 The other thing is most of Pat’s family were in the British army but so was James Connolly- they went there for three square meals a day- terrible poverty in London at the time They all ended up in the quartermaster store in charge of the guns- most Irish who joined, eventually ended up in the quartermaster stores- many books mention this- Tom Barry’s ‘Guerrilla Days’ in Ireland, academic tomes- say there were smuggling lines between Britain and Ireland- by boat Guns were been brought into the country from all over the place Pat’s grandfather smuggled revolvers- his mother tells the story that where they lived in London was regularly raided- the warning call would go out- the baby’s were in deep prams and grenades, mills bombs and webley’s [a revolver] would be put in under the babies- the babies would then be shaken to make them cry- the cops would leave the baby alone The priests would bring guns back, because a man of the cloth would never be searched They got small arms, not big arms They had intelligence and spies One of the big actions was they executed field marshal Sir Henry Wilson on Michael Collins orders- he was shot in Eaton Place [London] and Reggie [Reginald] Dunne and [Joseph O] Sullivan were hung for it Pat’s grandfather knew them very well Pat’s father told him that they met Michael Collins in London in a secret meeting to see what way the London battalion would go on the treaty negotiations because they were tossing a coin over the treaty basically- the battalion were split- they agreed for the sake of the unity they wouldn’t split- so after the civil war followed- they weren’t involved in that as much The Irish in London and Britain were very involved in the war of independence There is a connection to Moore street, the last people to surrender there were the London Irish battalion- about 60 or 70 came over from Britain and ended up in the GPO guys from Scotland, Manchester and London When Pearse said to surrender, they refused because the British would hear their accents and they would be executed- be seen as deserters from the western front Pearse and Clarke couldn’t convince them- eventually Sean Mac Diarmada convinced them that they wouldn’t be shot and they weren’t The last people to down to arms were from Pat’s parish Stories like this are coming out now and we are better for it |
0.53.28 - 0.54.44 |
The centenary and Fine Gael’s response, Moore Street The government didn’t want to celebrate the centenary- Fine Gael did not want to, but were forced into it by the relatives of the rising who went ballistic when they saw the original government video on it A road show went around to gauge people’s reactions and they didn’t realise that all over the country people wanted to celebrate the rising So, it’s been a good year “Moore street has been a big part of my life for 15 years and I am pleased that it has ended victoriously” |
0.54.55 - 1.00.27 |
The similarities between Cork people and the Londoners, Cork is a great city, the Irish always want to come home, Pat will try out Cork for a while Pat suddenly felt at home in Cork- Cork people remind him so much of east-enders in London Same pride, same “chippiness” It’s great to see people looking after the city Things have to die, grow, be reborn but in an organic way Change should be incrementa,l not forced Global capitalism forces everything- you lose things Dublin has lost something Cork is a great city, lots of people are saying this Pat hopes he doesn’t have to get involved in any campaigns Where you live is really important Pat grew up in a block of flats in London and it is not good for your soul - Seeing green fields and wildlife is good for you Pat appreciates what he has now Going abroad you can see what’s great about home Of all the ethnic groups, the Irish always want to go home at some point [A man, Finbarr, comes into the room to feed his dog out in the conservatory] The only group that talked about going home were the Irish More of Pat’s contemporaries are heading back now You reach a stage where you question where you’re from and you come back and realise that actually you fit here Britain is changing a lot, very tolerant society, but tumultuous “Do you ever fit in? I can’t answer that but for the moment Cork will do” INTERVIEW ENDS |