Patrick Cooney: Stonemasons,

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Title

Patrick Cooney: Stonemasons,

Subject

Stonemasons: Occupational Lore:

Description

Pat, who is not as stonemason but is from a long line of masons, grew up in London, his family left Cork in the 1880s
They brought their history with them- an oral history. They talked about Cork occasionally. One side of his family were masons- so it was easier to go back as they passed the trades down the generations.
In this interview Pat talks alot about his own family history. He later outlines what building works his family were involved in. Like that of, St Coleman's cathedral (Cobh), Galtee Castle (Tipperary) [demolished 1942] and the list goes on around Cork. Portumna Castle (Galway), Birr Castle (Offaly).
Pat then moves on to describe the experience of being Irish in London. He also mentions the similarities between the inhabitants of Cork and London.

Date

19 Feburary 2017

Identifier

CFP_SR00609_Cooney_2017

Coverage

Cork, Ireland, London England. 20th Century.

Source

Cork Folklore Project Audio Archive

Rights

Cork Folklore Project

Language

English

Type

Sound

Format

1 .wav File

Interviewee

Interviewer

Duration

60min 27sec

Location

Cork City

Original Format

.wav

Bit Rate/Frequency

24bit/48kHz

Transcription

The following is a short extract from the interview transcript, copyright of the Cork Folklore Project. If you wish to access further archival material for this interview or other interviews please contact CFP, folklorearchive@gmail.com

Time Summary

0.00.00 - 0.07.10

London-Irish identity, the Hogan name and link, researching their family tree, meeting their lineage

Pat grew up in London, his family left Cork in the 1880s

They brought their history with them- an oral history

They talked about Cork occasionally.

One side of his family were masons- so it was easier to go back as they passed the trades down the generations

His great, great grandfather was Jeremiah Hogan- a great Cork name- there was mention of Spike Island, he was one of 22 children- which shocked Pat

Pat’s mother was a keen amateur genealogist

Pat’s father is from Co Meath

Pat went on holidays in Ireland as a kid every summer

“so, we had this kind of wonderful schizophrenic duality, so we’d come home to Ireland”- England was Babylon

They went to Dublin, the link with Cork had been lost- Pat’s mother had a yearning to find out about her side of the family-

Hogan is a Tipperary name

They were brought to Cork as teenagers as his mother did her research in the local libraries- they were Hogan’s and masons

At that time, there was a local historian living out in Cobh, his name was Liam Hogan, a stonemason- the librarian told them this.

Pat remembers going up to a house in Cobh with his mother Eileen Devaney [phonetic sounding] to look for Liam O’Hogan. This man came out and he looked very dramatic, very rugged. Pat’s mother got emotional when she saw him “she knew she was in the right house” as he looked like her grandfather, “like meeting a ghost”

And she told him what she knew- he was a great writer and contributor to the Journal of the Cork historical and archaeological society JCAHS, he is dead since.

He was the right man, he knew his history- he had heard of the Hogan’s who went to London, “We don’t know what happened to them”

So, they had found the connection.

He was able to sit down and tell her what he knew (6m09s)

Since then, they have done a lot of research and they found out the Hogan’s have been stonemasons as far back as 1619, up to today, there is still a Hogan mason in Midleton [Cork]

The idea that stonemasonry is just another trade is wrong.

They are itinerant masons- they travel around

The Hogan name is from Tipperary, Limerick and Clare- they came down to Cork in the mid-eighteenth century because there was a huge building boom. They followed the work.

0.07.11 - 0.11.21

Father Edmond Hogan, the Jesuit Archive, finding the family tree

Liam Hogan told them about Father Edmond’s papers- he is a relative of theirs, he was a great historian in the 19th century

He taught James Joyce, he taught Douglas Hyde Irish. Pat did not know of him.

All of father Edmond Hogan’s brothers got together and took mortgages out so Edmond could train as a priest- he was bright- he became a very noted scholar who wrote countless books- he was a key figure in the revival of the Irish wolfhound. He wrote books on Ireland in the 16th century, he was a quasi-genius, he was great friends with Eoin McNeill. He was part of the language revival in the 1880s.

They found out all his papers were in the Jesuit archive in Dublin- they were allowed have a look at them but there was no order on them and there was a room full of them.

“literally walls of filing boxes”

This was in the 1990s, since then they have been put into order

They spent 3 days there- they found cigarette packets with notes on them- he was an inveterate note taker and historian

His famous book is called ‘Onomasticon Goedelicum’ [Latin phrase, 9m00s a history of all the place names in Irish]

He did research that is still been used

Pat and his mother were looking for stuff on the family tree- Pat was getting bored- finally on the last box at the bottom was his hand-written account of the family tree- [nice quote- 10m]

And it was all there- they were masons going way back- they came down from Tipperary

One of them built Ballyedmond House in Midleton

They would work on the house- become stewards and stay there

The mason’s sons would then move on to another place

So, there were Hogan’s all over East Cork and they were all masons

They built up a picture bit by bit

When Pat looks at a book, he goes to the back to see if there is any Hogan’s in it- if yes they are his (lineage)

0.11.22 - 0.14.47

What his ancestors built, speaking to masons, understanding life as a mason historicially, Eddie Buckley a mason, Clongowes and father Edmond Hogan

Pat is not a mason he grew up in London

Pat does not think he would be up to it but he has 400 hundred years of ancestry that helped build St Colemans cathedral (Cobh), the stores in Kinsale, Mitchelstown College, Galtee Castle (Tipperary) [demolished 1942] and the list goes on around Cork. Portumna Castle (Galway), Birr Castle (Offaly)

It is wonderful to read about it but you have to speak to masons today to realise that masonry was a hard, hard job- there was no romance or glamour- you were building a castle, but by god you worked hard for your money

Pat rediscovered this connection with his family and found that some of them were still masons but not working in the way that their ancestors had.

Eddie Buckley a cousin of Pat’s was able to tell him about been a stonemason and how hard it was and he said it’s no surprise that a lot of masons took to the drink- one the incessant hard work and also the stone dust

Stone carving was probably a bit easier and more creative

In those days, there was no health and safety- not an easy job and you’re lugging stone and exposed to the elements

It was easy to see why established masons tried to get their sons to college

Father Edmond Hogan went to Clongowes in the 1830s since then nearly all of the Hogan’s from that branch of the family have gone to Clongowes

So, the masonry has nearly died out in Pat’s family

One guy left in Midleton

Pat believes that because some of the older masons did not get the money or respect they deserved they don’t value the importance of it

So, when younger people talk about the art and craft of masonry they look at you really strange- “if you were out on scaffolding 8 hours a day you wouldn’t be romantic about it”

0.14.48 - 0.19.27

Stucadoors, Charles Fort, Kinsale, research, tribalism and identity in London, proud of his heritage, the migrant experience

Pat’s father was a decorative plasterer- he could do cornices, centre pieces he trained as what was called a stucadoor [plastering technique developed in ancient Greece]

He had no great love for it because he didn’t get well paid and wasn’t appreciated for it

Pat gets a great buzz from going around Cork looking at buildings that his family helped build

If you work in an office you don’t leave much behind but Pat can go to Charles Fort in Kinsale and look at the stores and his great, great, great, great, great grandfather designed and built them

They were the main trunk of the family

They have hooked up and become friends and helped each other with research

Pat’s mother was like a dog with a bone because “the Irish who go away hold on to it”

When you go to the maelstrom of London you have to identify yourself very quickly- it’s tribal- (nice quote-16m32s)

Pat grew up in the East End of London and there were lots of immigrants- Italians, Polish. German, West Indian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistanis- all living in very small geographical area

They had their own identities, cultures- sometimes they clashed, but not a lot

They were different to the Irish in America who developed a rose-tinted view of home- they were able to come home every year- pat knew the realities of Ireland in the 1970s and 80s

Pat knew it was different to England and he had a primal urge to be in Ireland- now he lives here

He has gradually made his way down to Cork

It is silly to be proud of your family tree because there are all dead, it is you that’s important because you are still alive

“you can’t trade off of dead men’s triumphs” 18m09s

It’s a pleasure to look at their work but also to realise that Pat didn’t have to do it

Patrick felt that it was schizophrenic growing up Irish in London- he would be called Irish because of his name, Patrick Cooney

He grew up with a dual identity

There were more pluses, than problems

0.19.28 - 0.22.52

The Cork Steam Packets, how the Irish settled in London, Irish names and culture in London, the Irish stays with you, and his love for Cork,

They found that the Cork steam packets [British Ferry Company] went out of Penrose Quay and they landed in Wapping just below tower bridge in the port of London and the Irish jumped off the ship on both sides of the Thames and settled and slowly moved inland

After WWII and the blitz, the Irish settled in Essex [London], you will find a lot of Cork descendants there

The Cork steam packet was the ship that most people took from Munster if they wanted to go to England

All the names from the school roll when pat was young were Munster names- it was a virtual cork

Pat lives in Dublin for years, but never felt at home there

Cork people remind him of home- slightly garrulous, slightly confrontational, can’t stop talking,

The people Pat grew up with in London were sometimes four or five generations away from Munster but it was there

Pat found himself drifting back home

Pat likes Cork, it has a lot of potential

There is a great gra for the city- they are chippy about the city

For a small place, there are attractive buildings

All of these churches perched on hills, because of the marshes

Pat’s mother used to come to Cork on the Inishfallen- she said coming to cork was extraordinary, like coming down into a field- cork was more continental than Dublin which was a bridges [phonetic sounding] city, in many respects

Pat is getting to know more about his family

He can go and touch buildings that his ancestors worked on and that pleases him

0.22.53 - 0.27.02

The pull to come home, what his ancestors did, Spike Island ledgers, IRB, research in London National Archives, Jeremiah Hogan’s 21 siblings, large Irish families and high death rates

Pat feels there might be a genetic impulse to come home

His family came to Cork in 1690 which isn’t a long time in history

But there is a pull absolutely

The real Ireland is outside Dublin

Pat does not have a need to go do masonry

Pat is a creative person

He does not think he would be up to it

That generation were tough- they were wiry

Pat’s family were employed by the board of ordinance to fortify Spike Island and they were employed by the British crown- Pat is a republican and wasn’t happy about this

The other side of Pat’s family were all members of the IRB [Irish Republican Brotherhood]

But if you have 21 kids to feed its understandable

They never knew about Spike Island until they did research

In London in the national archives- Pat found out that when the British left Ireland in 1922 they took everything with them- and Pat found the ledgers from the board of ordinance who looked after all the fortifications

Pat found in the ledgers that his great, great, great grandfather lived in Spike Island with 2 young children

He was there with a few other masons- onsite masons

There were 2 kids born on the island

On father Edmonds parchment, the family tree, they found all these weird notes- he put down Jeremiah Hogan and said he had 21 brothers and sisters- few lived beyond the age of 15, one went into the water and brought out a disease that killed 5 of them in a week- could be cholera

Pat understands now why his great, great grannie was pregnant from 18 to 48 almost, they had to because of natural wastage

From the family tree, Pat saw that a lot of the children would be dead by 4 and 5 (27m quote)

Out of 21 kids, you might end up with 5

0.27.03 - 0.28.56

Irish history, the Hogan’s in East Cork, Fota Island, the Smith-Barry’s

Pat’s family story is very similar to many, it’s the Irish story, you can follow it true

Some go into the priesthood, some go into the British army 27m10s and if they had any land, the youngest one gets the land

Pat learned about Irish history and Irish history is very traumatic and has repercussions through to today

The Hogan’s were very well got with the Smith-Barry’s who were very well got in East Cork- Barryscourt Hospital

They worked on Fota [Island in Cork Harbour] when it was been extended- it was a hunting lodge- some of his family lived on Fota in the Crescent [a part of Fota Island] and down by the jetty near Bellvelly

It was a bit like ‘Downton abbey’ [TV series]- they got jobs on the estate building the estate walls and things like that- this went thru until the 1940s, there was still Hogan’s there

Major Bell had it after the Smith-Barry’s

They were there till the 50s

Stonemasonry started to die out around that time then because buildings were engineered rather than built

0.28.57 - 0.33.07

Preserving our heritage, contemporary buildings, bad architecture and planning, Italian attitudes culture

What Jim Fahy is doing now is important- recording stuff

The Irish are good at rescuing things- Irish music was on its last legs until people went around and recorded all the old people playing music- looking back these people were pioneers

It’s the same with masonry- it’s an art it’s permanent- there will be a time when its cherished

There are stone buildings 200 hundred years old

Will some of the newer buildings be around in 50 years? Pat doesn’t think so

“we build with a built-in obsolescence”

Pat believes that Jim Fahy needs to go to the city council and demand that buildings need to have a certain amount of masonry in them

“why do buildings today look like IKEA stores?”

“why can’t we have classical stone buildings?”

“in Ireland we have a problem with visual illiteracy”

In Ireland things have to be in the brutalist style which Pat believes doesn’t work

The Elysium building doesn’t work

Classical, palladium, gothic, neo-gothic, arts and crafts buildings in cork, which work because the architect and builders were looking at how they were going to fit in to the streetscape or the landscape, whereas now with ego driven projects all they see is their building and that’s why they look ridiculous

The courthouse on Washington street is still a really attractive building

Pat spends a lot of time in Italy and they are surrounded by Renaissance buildings- they are proud and protect them

Ireland is on the edge of things so- “we want to be seen to be up to date but its actually passé”

Pat argues with architects, why can’t we have a modern classical building? They have no answer for it because they can’t do it- we need crafts people who can do it

It’s important for stonemasons and stucadoors to keep the craft alive because it will come back

0.33.08 - 0.37.17

Andrew Smith a modern stucadoor, small-scale planning, heritage, enjoying your craft, David shaw Smith and the television series ‘Hands’, Ken Thomson a stone carver in Ballycotton

Pat’s friend is probably Irelands best stucadoor, he is an expert on 18th century plaster work- Andrew Smith- smith and Henderson- the finest stucadoor in Ireland

Pat worked for him on a 18th century house in Henrietta street Dublin- Pat did it for a year and enjoyed it-

It’s a duty to people today to at least record what was there

How feasible are large scale buildings environmentally?

Small scale mix of buildings more amenable to a good quality of life- more environmentally sound

Pat has found that progress is always greed dressed up as progress

Be sceptical of what is seen as modern- tomorrow modern is old fashioned

Pat has no grá to be a mason- he respects it

You have to love your job- if not, your life is incrementally damaged- and you end up working in the civil service- soulless

Pat’s father loved talking about his job- crafts people do tend to enjoy their work more

In Cork more books being written- more progress

David Shaw-Smith did a great series in the 80s called ‘Hands’

36m43s he went out and filmed all these people when nobody was interested- he filmed Ken Thomson a stone carver- he’s only recently retired, lives in Ballycotton

An incredible series

0.37.18 - 0.40.31

Irish emigrant identity, travelling Irish, effects of emigration on Ireland: brain drain

Pat is very happy he was born the son of an Irish emigrant- it sharpened him- had to work out who he was

A lot of 2nd, 3rd generation Irish very unsure of who they are

[A woman walks into room and Pat speaks to her very briefly]

Pat has travelled a lot and there are always Irish people in the most curious of places- the wandering Irish

Ireland is poorly served by our government- the substitutes bench is on the field because of emigration- the best left

With mass-emigration you lose your best

Look around the world and you will see Irish names in the top positions in music, acting, science, engineering, politics- the descendants of Irish emigrants

“Nobody has the courage to bring home the diaspora to sort out the mess of a country we’ve got”

0.40.32 - 0.47.53

The Save Moore Street campaign, London battalion of IRB, the Easter Rising, a 15-year campaign, high court judge, Spitalfield London, have to fight for your culture

Pat was angry that a historic part of Dublin was going to be flattened for a shopping centre

Will they ever understand that they’ve got something special here, an almost intact 18th century city

There was wholesale demolition during the 80s

Moore street really touched Pat, because his family were republicans involved in the war of independence in the London battalion smuggling guns over to Ireland

He thought it was sinful that such a historic spot where Pearse and Connolly evacuated from the GPO [General Post Office] was going to be levelled for a shopping centre- you couldn’t make it up

The campaign lasted 15 years and we won, unlike most heritage campaigns in Ireland

They lost Wood Quay, Glen of the Downs, lost the Corrib, lost Tara- Moore street most successful campaign

We ended up in the high court in the centenary year with relatives of 1916 rising against the Irish government- you couldn’t make it up

The media had no interest in us

The judge saw it and made the right decision

Moore street has a vibrant market

People all over Ireland like open markets

But planners like large scale things because they bring in rates and that’s all their interested in it

It was “David versus Goliath”

I knew we’d win because we would go to the end- chain ourselves to the buildings if we had too

Pat was involved in a campaign in London to save Spitalfield market

Pat always found in committee’s and campaigns there’d be irish people

Pat believes the Irish inside Ireland are not great fighters, but outside they are

It’s the emigrant experience

They are now involved in the redesign of the Moore Street area in an appropriate manner

Yesterday was the 1st anniversary of the judgement in the high court

Ireland has a great country with heritage and culture, but at local and national level the government are an enemy- who see Ireland as their own personal resource to exploit

Everybody can do something to help our country

We had 700 years of domination and we still held on to our identity, music and culture.

We can’t possibly sell it in the last 40 years to something as sad as global capitalism

Identity is always changing and forming but coming back to Cork I can see more clearly where an awful lot of me comes from

0.47.54 - 0.53.27

London battalion IRB, British army, smuggling guns from London to Ireland, the execution of Field Marshall Sir Henry Wilson by Reggie dunne and Joseph O’Sullivan, Michael Collins in London. The treaty and negotiations. The London Irish battalion in the GPO and refusing to surrender

Pat is very proud of his republican roots- London battalion

The Irish volunteers were founded in 1913- so many Irish in Britain that battalions were set up in cities- Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow and two in London

Pat’s grandfather and two grand-uncles were members of the London battalion- 1913-1914

The other thing is most of Pat’s family were in the British army but so was James Connolly- they went there for three square meals a day- terrible poverty in London at the time

They all ended up in the quartermaster store in charge of the guns- most Irish who joined, eventually ended up in the quartermaster stores- many books mention this- Tom Barry’s ‘Guerrilla Days’ in Ireland, academic tomes- say there were smuggling lines between Britain and Ireland- by boat

Guns were been brought into the country from all over the place

Pat’s grandfather smuggled revolvers- his mother tells the story that where they lived in London was regularly raided- the warning call would go out- the baby’s were in deep prams and grenades, mills bombs and webley’s [a revolver] would be put in under the babies- the babies would then be shaken to make them cry- the cops would leave the baby alone

The priests would bring guns back, because a man of the cloth would never be searched

They got small arms, not big arms

They had intelligence and spies

One of the big actions was they executed field marshal Sir Henry Wilson on Michael Collins orders- he was shot in Eaton Place [London] and Reggie [Reginald] Dunne and [Joseph O] Sullivan were hung for it

Pat’s grandfather knew them very well

Pat’s father told him that they met Michael Collins in London in a secret meeting to see what way the London battalion would go on the treaty negotiations because they were tossing a coin over the treaty basically- the battalion were split- they agreed for the sake of the unity they wouldn’t split- so after the civil war followed- they weren’t involved in that as much

The Irish in London and Britain were very involved in the war of independence

There is a connection to Moore street, the last people to surrender there were the London Irish battalion- about 60 or 70 came over from Britain and ended up in the GPO guys from Scotland, Manchester and London

When Pearse said to surrender, they refused because the British would hear their accents and they would be executed- be seen as deserters from the western front

Pearse and Clarke couldn’t convince them- eventually Sean Mac Diarmada convinced them that they wouldn’t be shot and they weren’t

The last people to down to arms were from Pat’s parish

Stories like this are coming out now and we are better for it

0.53.28 - 0.54.44

The centenary and Fine Gael’s response, Moore Street

The government didn’t want to celebrate the centenary- Fine Gael did not want to, but were forced into it by the relatives of the rising who went ballistic when they saw the original government video on it

A road show went around to gauge people’s reactions and they didn’t realise that all over the country people wanted to celebrate the rising

So, it’s been a good year

“Moore street has been a big part of my life for 15 years and I am pleased that it has ended victoriously”

0.54.55 - 1.00.27

The similarities between Cork people and the Londoners, Cork is a great city, the Irish always want to come home, Pat will try out Cork for a while

Pat suddenly felt at home in Cork- Cork people remind him so much of east-enders in London

Same pride, same “chippiness”

It’s great to see people looking after the city

Things have to die, grow, be reborn but in an organic way

Change should be incrementa,l not forced

Global capitalism forces everything- you lose things

Dublin has lost something

Cork is a great city, lots of people are saying this

Pat hopes he doesn’t have to get involved in any campaigns

Where you live is really important

Pat grew up in a block of flats in London and it is not good for your soul - Seeing green fields and wildlife is good for you

Pat appreciates what he has now

Going abroad you can see what’s great about home

Of all the ethnic groups, the Irish always want to go home at some point

[A man, Finbarr, comes into the room to feed his dog out in the conservatory]

The only group that talked about going home were the Irish

More of Pat’s contemporaries are heading back now

You reach a stage where you question where you’re from and you come back and realise that actually you fit here

Britain is changing a lot, very tolerant society, but tumultuous

“Do you ever fit in? I can’t answer that but for the moment Cork will do”

INTERVIEW ENDS

Citation

Cork Folklore Project , “Patrick Cooney: Stonemasons,,” accessed March 29, 2024, https://corkfolklore.org/archivecatalolgue/document/195.